The Pure Brutality of it.
Hey Tony - STFU.
Two years ago this week in a match against Birmingham City, Arsenal foward Eduardo Da Silva was violently tackled on the pitch and suffered an injury that at the time looked career ending. It was a watershed mark for the lub who at the time were leading the league and looked well on the way to winning the title. But they didn’t. The emotional toll associated with the injury wracked the young Arsenal side and they weren’t able to recover and wound up losing their hold on the league and eventually watched United claim their second title in a row.
Flash forward to this Saturday. Arsenal is locked in a pitched battle to stay in the race for the EPL title. Chelsea have lost a win at the Brittania – something that is hard to come by – places them 3 points off the lead and shows them to return to the consistency that saw them from deficits of 11 points behind and 9 points behind.
Again like the season two years ago, a promising Arsenal talent, this time Aaron Ramsey suffers a horrendus injury. This injury is double break of the tibia and fibula of his right leg. He has had successful surgery but the long-term prognosis is unknown. If they were clean breaks, there is a very realistic chance Ramsey could be playing again within 6-9 months. If there are associated muscle and ligament damage then it will likely be longer. All this is speculation of course. On the severe end – it could stop a promising career before it ever started.
Regardless it is the third such injury to an Arsenal player in the last 4 years. Prior to Ramsey and Eduardo – Diaby was taken down by Dan Smith and had his ankle broken. Immediately the press were a blare of the coincidence of the three similar injuries. That Arsenal were clearly a team with bad luck in the injury department.
But is that really the case and are the English press be lazy and protective of their national game? It’s very hard for me to think that these three injuries are a mere coincidence. Additionally, the fact that Arsenal has had two ankles and one leg broken does not equate to Arsenal being a “soft squad.” What this really all equates to is the fact that the English game for years has been about its physicality. It has never been nor is it now about the finesse like the rest of Europe. True, Italy and Spain play a physical game but not at the expense of swift possession and counter-attacking football. The kind of physicality found in the EPL is a trait only in the English game.
The fundamental problem is that while the physicality has remained the same, the overall game has picked up its pace. The two combined mean that the inkuries that could arise will most certainly be worse than if the game were slower – more controlled if you will – than days past. It is why in the states the NFL has imposed new rules to protect the Quarterback – the play is just as physical as in the good old days of the more brutal NFL – but now the players are bigger and stronger and the injuries that players in the NFL are more severe.
The pace of the English game has picked up. But the fans and a majority of managers still play with a “studs up” mentality. Add that to the fact that Arsenal has a reputation of getting off their game should you play them more physical. While in itself seems harmless it is when that physicality is amped up that injuries like Ramsey, Eduardo, and Diaby’s occur. Sure, the intent isn’t to maim a player but based on how the player is coached to play the game it could certainly lead to that.
Until the English game places rules in that insure that when injuries like this occur a player gets more than a 3 match ban – injuries like this continue to go on. And until refs don’t sit on their whistles and actually control a game – the matches will get out of hand. It is quite possible that the ferocity that both players went into the 50/50 wouldn’t have happened if the match ref had controlled some of “physicality” of the match. You have to think that both players played the 50/50 as they did because they mentaly knew that regardless of the outcome nothing would be called. It is mismangement of a match like this that will result in the ultimate tragedy one day.
But I am going to side with the consipiracy theorists here – until an injury of this nature happens to an English star – Rooney, Terry, Lampard or Gerrard – nothing will be done. The same old arguements will be bandied about – Arsenal are soft, foreign players can’t play a physical game – take your pick. Until one of England’s treasured sons go down the status quo will remain as it is – sadly.
Some final words – the British press (not all of them) are quick to point out that Ryan Shawcross is a good lad and in no way was intent on injuring Ramsey. They point to his crying walking off the pitch and being driven home by his mum and still in tears. His manager Tony Pulis rightly so jumped to his defence as did the press. But when you search for Ryan Shawcross you notice something comes up. 2 other incidents against two former Arsenal players.
Last season against Stoke, Emmanuel Adebyor going out ot play a ball that is going out, Shawcross goes in and while Adebayor is clearly out of play – hits the former Arsenal striker in the ankle. The resulting injury kept Adebayor out 3-4 weeks. In 2007 he broke the leg of another former Arsenal player Francis Jeffers. So either the English press are lazy, Tony Pulis is naive or they are just out to protect an English lad against a foreign run club. Frankly, if the FA want to show good faith and that they are serious about erradicating this kind of stuff – they would look at Shawcross’ history and have him sit no less than 10 games or to the end of the season. Considering Ramsey likely won’t play until next January or February at the earliest – it’s the least they can do.
Additonally, I would like to address those fans of other teams that are bitching about Wenger’s post-game statements. It is true sometimes the frenchman goes off half-cocked. My personal opinion is it is always to protect his lads. But in this case Wenger had every right to rail as he did. He knew how Stoke were going to approach this match. He knew the team would have to brace up for it. Hell, he knew the likelihood of a serious injury surely could happen in this match. But when an injury of this magnitude happens – he has every right to throw the kitchen sink at the opposing team, the lazy refs, and anyone else he deems worthy. I would expect no less of the manager.
In the end, the team won the match. It showed some real mettle. In watching the team’s reaction to the injury I was worried that the “eduardo” effect would sweep over the club. But within 5 minutes of the restart it did look like we had the best of the play. You could not blame the lads had they drawn or even lost after that. But they didn’t – they strapped on a pair, and went home with two additional goals and 3 points keeping themselves in the race. And while all that is moot point next to the injury – seasons are made from moments. Chelsea in 2005, United in 2006 had moments that defined their seasons and propelled them to the league titles. While it is early to see how the squad reacts – the first step was promising. Huddled together in a circle brought together by the clubs elder statesman, Sol Campbell, the team came together. Maybe for good.
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Verme’s a diamond in every way. Kudos to Wenger on his signing. How’sa bout a few more? :-)
Looking forward to a few things in the Burnley game….
Observing the linking between Bendtner and Arshavin. Nic’s confidence, which is never low must be bubbling at present. Goals for Arsenal and Denmark will have done him good. Hopefully Arshavin will enjoy having a real forward to play off.
Diaby should be back. Looking forward to seeing him in midfield, he was going along nicely before another jolly annoying injury.
No Song, Gallas or Campbell – bummer.
Anyway, hopefully this side has fire in the belly and the determination to smack a very poor Burnley team at The Emirates. If we can’t….
G’day Joshuad. Thanks for the question
Essien had a bad run injuy-wise last season. And this season is being hampered again. So, is he too fragile? Well he is 27 and so we can make an assessment based on evidence. Until last season he had been a good contributor to Chelsea and Lyon and was a key figure in at least 3 title winning campaigns. So, unless the medical staff say otherwise I’d keep him. We know he can and has ‘done it’ on several ocassions so why dispense with him? He’s not like Robin with 7 injury interrupted seasons in a row and who has never contributed over the duration of any season ever. Then again, everyone seems to think it’s just bad luck for 7 years. :-)
Do any Boston Gooners know where I can catch tomorrow’s game? I don’t know what the deal is now that Setanta is done. Also, does anyone have FSC Plus yet? When can we expect it?
Brendan…
JUST saw this, after the fact.
There are NUMEROUS places to watch matches in Boston.
Where are you in the city.
The Phoenix Landing is in Cambridge, usually PACKED.
The Banshee is in Dorchester, really good place to see a match.
LIR is in downtown near the Prudential, and is a newer place to watch games.
FOX SOCCER PLUS is not on Comcast yet, I have already called
to complain!
Kiwi, got a question for you. Since you think van Persie is injury-prone, do you consider Essien injury prone as well? If so, would you want to sell him if he were an Arsenal player?
On the rumor mill…
JUVE will deal Melo to us… but they want either
RVP, Sagna, or Clichy in any deal.
Personally, I would give them RVP.
I don’t think he can play a full season…
And I like Sagna and Clichy as long-term RB and LB.
Sol Campbell has an injury and is DOUBTFUL for Saturday.
Who’s stepping in… I’ll assume its Silvestre?
Sol’s been good so far, but can’t expect him to play
regularly without injury… after being without matchs for so long.
——-
Off any topic really…
Why don’t Arsenal start putting up advertising all around the pitch?
Why not extra logos on the players shorts, back of the shirts,
next to the net on the ground… on the pitch itself… how about
technology that advertises on the field that only TV can see…
(like the yellow first down line in US Football)
Let’s make money… why not go all out and make more advertising dollars… they could sell naming rights for the halves of games.
The Virgin Atlantic First half…
The Marks & Spencer 2nd half…
Just curious… probably not allowed by the league…
Give them RvP for Melo? Are you nuts?
I don’t care how injury prone he is at the moment, when he is on fire he is the jewel in the crown.
You can see how we have struggled without him. We had an average of over 3 goals a game before his injury we have an average of just over 1 since his injury according to the commentary I heard the other day.
Who is Melo an unproven entity in the EPL does he have the physical/aggressive quality we need in the side can he handle the English game only time will teel. To swap him for any of our established players would be a risk.
The only one I would consider is Clichy as I think Gibbs can do a good job but Traore is still extremely suspect defensively on his all too frequent bad days
Give them RvP for Melo? Are you nuts?
————
LOL! Half a season RvP would be a safer bet than Melo.
There have been some Brazilians who made it in EPL, but even more who failed, regardless of their “reputation”. Robinho anyone?
Baptista on the face of it looked like the safest bet to make it in EPL. What with his physical presence. The Breast built like a breast alright. Still, it’s our luck that he’s only a loan deal a few years back. Had we bought him (and he wasn’t cheap at that time), it would have been one of the worst deals AW ever made, up there with Francis Jeffers.
And I suppose you are joking about the advertising, right
Are we not the Ars£nal after all :-D , do we need anymore revenue?
Folks, I didn’t see much made of Gallas recent “tackle” where he could
easily have broken the guys ankle.
I didn’t hear even ONE WORD about it on here.
Why?
because of the color of his shirt.
Seriously, Wenger and Arsenal need to STOP BEING VICTIMS.
If the FA isn’t going to do anything of note, you have to
protect your players and change and adapt what you do.
Otherwise…
Foul me once, shame on you…
Foul me twice, shame on me!
Gallas ‘ challenge was clumsy… really clumsy unintentional and did not have anything near the force to break the guys leg.
Yes, and because of the colour of his shirt! Gallas will get enough vilification from the haters every wrong move he makes why should be keen to add to it as Arsenal supporters.
That’s not so…I mentioned it in my rantish post near the top of the thread (or at least I criticized Arsenal fans for jeering/flipping off Mark Davies as he was carried off).
IMO, it WAS a bad tackle (not nearly as high speed/forceful as Shawcross’, but late and over the ball.) I also think that we should have put the ball out of play and we accumulated (this will get me at least an LOL, if not a new arsehole…) some bad Karma by playing on and scoring that goal. But that’s my just opinion. I was unable to celebrate that victory (and our moment at the top of the table) because of what I perceived as our lack of fair play. I posted in the aftermath of the match that “What comes around goes around” or we should be prepared to expect the same treatment, or something along those lines….
I know I will be told to go watch dancing….(which is freaking absurd hyperbole, by the way….)
I do enjoy the technical elements of the game AND I would prefer to see them promoted, WHILE having the brutish elements removed. And I am proud when I feel that Arsenal live up to the (much over-hyped) standard that they have set for “beautiful football.” I will also be proud of our team if we can muster an “us vs them” mentality, that sees us through to better, more inspired performances and results. But I hope we out-play (out-dance?) Burnley tomorrow, rather than beating them into submission.
Physicality IS not the issue here. Football is a physical game, and with players putting their legs (and heads) at risk to play the ball, accidents will happen. The statistics posted above (broken legs and lack of cards given) about the English League, however, say it all.
What we have is a culture, where the police (referees) look away (whenever they can) and the judges (media/pundits/fans) give in to their worst instincts, and the government (the FA) speaks volumes with its silence.
Arsenal need to adhere to a higher standard…We need to police ourselves. The Shawcross tackle is (way) too much, but so was Gallas’. AW was disingenuous to say that he didn’t see it. (Not his first time….) He needs to do better as well. His comments after Ramsey’s injury were good, but he blew it at the Bolton match….
Thanks for reading….time to step down from my high horse, un-bunch my panties, and see if there’s any dancing or figure skating on…..
Bobby McMahon of FSC said on their EPL weekend wrap up:
“That video shows definitively that the tackle is not a 50-50 as many people are claiming and that Shawcross actually sweeps through the leg of Aaron Ramsey, playing the man and not the ball.”
This said it all. Shawcross may be a nice lad without a bad bone in his body but it does nothing to dispel the fact that he has a history of poor decisions on the field and would be far better suited for the WCF than for football.
His inability to make good decisions on the pitch which can result in serious bodily injury being inflicted on players means he should be thrown out of the game for a long time. If he is not fittingly punished at this juncture he will forever remain a “hatchet man” threat to opponents.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrRs1XJkZa4
De Jong’s foul on Holden in a meaningless friendly. Looks much worse than Shawcross.
Should we just get used to these kind of things?
Its a physical game. You’re not a man if you dont like it. Blood is normal. More blood the better. A few bones? Hah they’ll grow back. Physical ..contact sport… entertainment.. WWF = Football .. sooner we ban red cards the better. Hello..Mr.Platini…
no, its better if they make it a non-contact sport…
why not put a tutu on the keepers… and they can do dance routines in order to get free-kicks…
if you don’t like the physical play, there are other sports to watch… or dancing…
for example:
for those that don’t like the physical play in Ice Hockey, there is Figure Skating.
Not a damned thing wrong with football today… if the English FA simply suspended players sufficiently, it would be a deterrent.
I’d like to see DIVERS (like Eboue) sent off immediately as well…
There is a reason the EPL is the most popular league in the world.
How does that look worse than Shawcross?!!
Stag, Andez, Joshuad, I read your comments and agree with almost all the points you raised and yet I don’t at this stage come to the same conclusion.
I’m not into slamming our young players (although my sporadic comments on Walcott if taken in isolation may lead some to that view). And yes Arsene Wenger and Fabio Capello are very different yet individually brilliant eyes for talent. So clearly Walcott exhibits something they like. It’s just as a mere fan, a keen observer of our side, I can’t see it. I see pace. I see very ocassional bursts of pace and thrust that lead to ‘whow’ goals. But that’s it. Now after 4 years I would have hoped for more. I won’t press this point further because I’ve said enough and I hope Theo proves his talent to us all soon. And I hope he plays a key part in winning this seasons title for us. I really do.
But I won’t join a chorus against Waddle, it’s his job to evaluate what he sees, and I cannot say based on the evidence thus far that he’s wrong. Professional football is extravagantly and nonsensically rewarded yet one of the ways the ledger is balanced and a sense of accountability is achieved is through the scrutiny of fans and media. That aspect can be cruel yet that’s life. And it shouldn’t be removed. The only way a player should rightly evade criticism is by fronting up and demonstrating his class consistently.
I’ll agree with Josh, Waddle can feck himself.
What’s he know about Theo Walcott?
It is a RARE case that a 20 year old… who has battled injury, and not had a regular run in the team because of it… is going to take a leap and bound on the pitch.
He is slight in build, and he will mature physically.
I like his chances of being a very good player in 2 to 3 years, IF he stays healthy.
Not quite ready to give up on him.
Theo averages 15 starts over four seasons. That’s sixty games spread out over four years. Who can establish themselves with such sporadic appearances? Rooney and Fabregas will probably start sixty games this year, alone. You can’t fairly compare one to the other.
I’ll agree that Theo has been less than impressive. I’ll also admit that the media lavished big praise on him. However, I won’t agree that Waddle and co have been fair and just in their criticisms. Walcott is only twenty years old. Injuries have not only limited his appearances but he you can’t even train while injured. When was he supposed to develop?
How many people at any age can do what Rooney and Fabregas can? Certainly not Mr. Waddle. Yet, here he is busting the balls of a twenty year old kid. Seriously, Waddle can go fuck himself. Theo’s not on top form and Capello and Wenger know it. But they know what he’s capable of. If all else fails, Capello doesn’t have to take him to South Africa. But for now, he needs to shut his hole and let fate take that kid where it may.
Nothing is going to change regarding the Ramsey incident.
Already, Burnley players are saying that they will not hold back against Arsenal.
If it is understandable that Stoke fans support their player, how do you explain Theo, an Arsenal player, supporting him as well? Maybe Theo does lack something.
Nip, did you see what I said above?
Just curious…
Let’s say Theo actually KNOWS him.
Obviously, he supports his teammate, we KNOW that… is he supposed to just shit on Shawcross?
In times of turmoil, friends/family/co-workers… they often show support.
There is ZERO support for his actions. They can’t be explained away, nor can they be defended.
However… do you actually expect everybody in the league, friends, teamates, ex-teamates… to just SLAY this kid?
Burnley are going to come to play PHYSICAL.
Why the hell wouldn’t they? What choice do they have, to dance with Arsenal?
Should they play a wide-open match and not commit any fouls?
Theo lacks… TIME.
He was brought in at what 16 or 17?
We expect Henry… sorry, he’s about 5 or 6 years away from his prime, and at least 3 from maturing physically.
I think he’ll be just fine, but it may take him a few years. Maybe if Wenger didn’t load the team with kids, and had a bit more balance in the proven v un-proven talent…?
just a guess.
Stag, I’ve read what you have written.
“I think you’ll find friends and family show support for people who have done wrong, no matter what.
its human nature.”
So Rooney, Gerrard, Tony Pulis, etc. defend Shawcross.
What about Theo? Last I heard, he was team mates with Ramsey. Doesn’t he find it necessary to defend him? Ok, if not defend him, at least keep quiet and say nothing.
When Ronaldo got Rooney sent off in the Euros, did Rooney spew shit on him? I don’t remember it. Don’t you think at least Arsenal players should defend one of their own?
you have no idea if Theo knows Shawcross…
what if they are mates?
didn’t I read that Theo had talked to Shawcross, and said that Ryan had texted Aaron Ramsey?
So being a teamate over-rides friendship? does it over-ride family too?
You don’t know about their personal lives, who people are friends with, etc…
If my FRIEND did what Shawcross did, I would show support for him… if the FA does what its supposed to do, he’d have the rest of the season on the sidelines to reflect on his play.
ZERO blame to Theo.
It kinda remind me now how Tony Adams was once being critised as a “Donkey”. That he’s overrated, and was not good enough playing for England. Graham Taylor joined the fun jumping onto young Theo’s back, and he was the one who dropped Adams and opted for Charlton Palmer as England’s center half. Er well…
That tells you how much those football experts, former pros KNOW.
Again Kiwi, not a fair accessment.
Rooney, at age of 16, already built like a bull. How many teenagers are gifted with that kind of physical strength? As a result, he has been a STARTER throughout his young career. When u play every game, it’s far easier to improve than being a rotation player.
Fabregas is one of those talents that don’t come along every 10 or 20 years. His strength is in his HEAD. A tremendous intelligent footballer. How many young footballers at age of 17 are blessed with such a football brain?
And besides, Cesc has been fortune in a sense that under the CIRCUMSTANCE (that following Vieira’s departure, AW did not buy a replacement), as a result, Cesc has been playing game after game for many years.
Remember initially Wenger’s intention was to GRADUALLY fit him into the first team. By “protecting” him not wanting to risk a burnt out and not to play him every game.
Yet as it turned out, due to Paddy’s departure, AW played Cesc week in week out at a young age.
If you look at Merida, Ramsey. Those players are quality players. But they don’t get to play week in week out like Cesc did.
cos the CIRUMSTANCE now is different. We have more central midfielders now than then. And Cesc already established himself as our key player.
Had Merida been the one who joined Arsenal at the time Paddy left, he too could have been the one who’s marshalling the middle of park for us today.
Likewise, if Cesc was younger and join today, he too may not get the chance to start playing regularly at a young age. And has to wait for his chances like Ramsey, Wilshere, Merida, Denilson do.
Footballers, in a sense, do need luck (especially in terms of timing) to make a successful career out of their short career span.
Then u look at Walcott. We have so many quality wide players on both flank. Walcott had to challenge Hleb, Rosicky, then later Arshavin, Nasri for a starting role. It’s easier to say than actually doing it trying to win the starting place ahead of all those established international class players.
Plus the fact he has suffered so many injuries in his short career, it surely doesn’t help his progress neither.
The so-called “taking 4 years yet going nowhere” is extremely unfair.
The first two seasons he’s very much a bench players behind Rosicky and Hleb.
This season he spent most of the season in treatment table.
That left only last season he took advantage of Rosicky’s injury and had a run of game, and did pretty well IMO.
Now imagine had Wenger never sold Vieira, do you think Cesc would have progressed as quickly for the past 5 years?
bottom line is- if you expect a player to be “consistent”, he gotta have the chance to “consistently” playing games at the first place.
No, Cesc might not have progressed as quickly, but we’d probably have won a few trophies in that time!
;)
As for comparisons of Walcott to Rooney and Fabregas – Waddle is right on target.
Clubs like ManU and Arsenal are at the top of the game. They pay top dollar, the expectation is that their players contribute significantly to the cause. So they are not a place for struggling youngsters to learn the game. Fabregas and Rooney were integrated into their teams early on the back of their rare ability. They didn’t take 4 years to go nowhere. Walcott has. They contributed straight away, sure they had little dips and aspects of their games have developed, yet they contributed. If you are going to treat the first team of a ManU or Arsenal like a nursery then expect criticism.
Waddle’s just stating the blazingly obvious, many Arsenal supporters won’t like it due to their sentimental allegiance to our players, or the manager, and in this case it’s to Walcott. Yet, it is what it is. If you can’t demonstrate why you’ve been picked in the team through your on-field performance then it’s the player that needs to rectify that. If he can’t, then all you can do is say “ok the manager’s happy to carry him”. That’s ok if your winning and achieving what you’re there to achieve, but we’re not, so Walcott (et al) is part of the problem.
the problem is not “Theo”… it is having numerous players in the team, that are too young to produce for a team “at the top of the game”…
That is not done at Manchester United.
The blame wouldn’t be on Theo, in my eyes… its on “he who must not be contradicted”!
Joshuad, have a look at the stats, over the last 4 years Walcott has averaged 15 starts and 14 sub appearances for Arsenal every year.
He is not Vela. He has had significant opportunity to progress in real action over 4 years. Last season he started 25 games and came on in another 8.
So Waddle, and other commentators, are hardly being unfair in evaluating what progress is apparent in his game. Truth is, the media has lavished ridiculous praise on Walcott on the basis of precious little evidence. As for too much expectation and pressure. Why did Arsene encourage his inclusion in the last WC squad under Svend? I assume Wenger honestly thought Walcott had the goods to impress. Sadly he didn’t, Wenger got it badly wrong, the England players vocally resented him being there….
Kiwi,
how old is Theo?
some players develop faster than others, and he has been slowed by injury.
While I can’t possibly say that Walcott has been close to good, he could be… hell, he won’t even get into his prime for about 6 or 7 years!
I wouldn’t give up on his career… he might become a really good player, perhaps somewhere else?!
Gotta applause something I watched on a La Liga match.
At. Madrid Vs Valencia. Madrid got a clear cut penalty denied. Moment later Valencia scored at the other hand.
Soon later At. Madrid got yet another clear cut penalty denied by the ref initially. A handball as clear as daylight in the box by a Valencia defender.
The Madrid players surrounded the ref, and the crowd went wild (Madrid at home). Probably giving in to the pressure, the ref tried to consult his “assistant referee” for some help. But the lineman was on the other flank and couldn’t see the incident. So the ref went and consult the “fourth referee”. And eventually overturned his initially decision and awarded Madrid a penalty and sent the offender off.
That to me was a great piece of common sense execution. The 4th officials have always been seen as a joke in football. They are there just to listening to the managers’ rants. And virtually doing nothing.
But on this occasion, the 4th offical made himself useful, and spotted something the ref failed to spot. As a result helping the ref making the right call.
It just showed how a decision from the ref could potentially change the outcome of a game. Madrid went on to win the game. Yet had not because of that correct call from the 4th official, it could easily have gone the other way.
Another thing about this game is – Jose Antonio Reyes. After struggling for many years since leaving Arsenal, Reyes seeems to be finally found his feet again, and playing like the way he should be.
I were never a big fan of Reyes when he’s with Arsenal. But you gotta admit this guy got talent. I won’t be surpised he may even win himself a spot in the Spain WC squad if he keeps up his current form.
Ummmm.
It sounds like you are advocating the famous Manchester United tactic… of when a call went against them (or a non-call)… they would ALL surround the referee to try and FORCE a call.
When I read what you typed, that’s what came to mind.
Intimidating referees!
I saw that game the other night when I said that, when Wenger does step down, That Quique Sanchez Flores should be the new Arsenal boss. Atletico are playing good football and by the end of the season, they’ll be the form team in Spain.
And yes, Reyes has played well. He’s the reason Maxi Rodriguez went to Liverpool for free. Atletico have got some “no shit” good footballers in that side. I try and watch them whenever I can.
I read Waddle’s article the other day. He also went on to compare Theo to Fabregas and Rooney.
What Waddle’s not getting is Theo is barely back from injury and has not had a descent run of games. Consistency is the key to development in any task. Theo may not have a football brain but he may and a run in the team without the pressure of trying to impress may very well be all he is missing.
Comparing him to Rooney and Fabregas is like comparing a kid who’s been driving every day for six years to someone who’s had a license only three years ago and seldom drives. Do we need Waddle to tell us who’s going to be the better driver?
If Theo had played essentially every match for the past six years and he still played like he does, then comparing him to Rooney is fair. However, to compare them simply because of their age is absolutely unfair. It’s not about their age but about their experience and development. All players need consistency to develop; even Rooney and Fabregas.
Waddle should have known better..
As a footballer, in his early career, he had a lot of people on his back, because of his inconsistency.
Nobody denied his talent. But he’s never the most popular player in England. Partly because of his long hair and pop star image (he and Hoddle actually released a single), partly because of his inconsistency.
His career didn’t hit the height until late in his career when he moved to France. So he should understand better than many others to give the youngsters a break.
But then, I used to think his pal Glenn Hoddle would have more time for creative, LUXURY player like himself. Platini once said, “had Hoddle being France, he would have won over 100 caps”.
Hoddle got only 50. Because England boss did not appreicate his lack of work rate.
So when Hoddle took charge of England, you would have thought he would give the likes of Le Tissler, a player in Hoddle’s mould, more chances.
Hoddle didn’t. In fact, he kicked another flair and creative player Gazza out of WC as well.
The funny side of football.
Walcott is consistently poor, not inconsistent.
“He’s sent a few text messages to Aaron. I’ll let them get on with it. He spoke to me, he’s a very humble lad. Obviously he knows what’s happened and feels very bad. He’s apologised. He’s not a player to do those sort of tackles. He’ll put his head down and work very hard for club and country.”
Theodore Walcott
Are there still any Arsenal fans out there who need convincing that England doesn’t see a problem with high studs-up tackles? Even the evidence of a young player of 22 like Shawcross with 3 notches on his belt isn’t remotely enough to register. It’s overlooked and the balm of “he’s not that type of player” is applied liberally to every try-hard English plodder by everyone including our own boneheaded Englishman.
Interesting to see Chris Waddle, one of Englands most talented contributions to football describing Walcott thus:
“I just don’t think he’s got a football brain and he’s going to have problems. Let’s be honest, good defenders would catch him offside every time….He’s at a great club where they play fantastic football week-in, week-out, and I’m just surprised he’s never developed his game.”
Not defending Shawcross idiotic tackle, but seriously…
should we stone him in Trafalgar Square?
What exactly would you like HIM to do at this point?
It is DONE.
He should be suspended 20 matches.
But its up to the English FA to act.
If you KNOW Shawcross, and Rooney and Ferguson and Walcott … etc… they KNOW him, perhaps even friendly with him… what should they do?
Should they abandon him? Should they shun him publicly?
I think you’ll find friends and family show support for people who have done wrong, no matter what.
its human nature.
I know, he should disemboweled, nobody should say anything remotely positive about him, hell, his Mom shouldn’t have even driven him home.
If the FA acted accordingly, there would be a reduction in that type of foul.
Until they do, it will continue.
…multiple breaks to both Shawcross legs would be nice. :-)
I agree with much of what you say Stag. The bit I liked was Theodore saying “he’s not a player to do those sort of tackles”. That’s the bonehead culture that permeates English football. Essentially it means nothing. If you conducted an autopsy on that statement it would be empty – there’s no substance to it. It flies in the face of evidence because what they’re really saying is that pushing the boundaries on tackling is ok and a risk we accept in our game. If you don’t like it – sod off.
Theodore should just shut up. It was his third team mate to be hacked.
I saw a little of the game between Mexico and our boys. Three things;
1. What a goal by Vela.
2. What an insanely long “gooooooooaaaaaaaaaallllllllll”, truely and utterly demented.
3. At international level the NZ team really struggle against the top international sides with players from the better professional leagues. So….. in a sense it is a bit like Arsenal v Burnley. NZ has to work its socks off to try and stay in the game. And they do, and the old adages like commitment etc come up. I saw a NZ player tackle a Mexican in a committed fashion. Nothing dangerous but very physical (yellow carded). I thought…. hmmm. Then within a couple of minutes a Mexican carried out a similarly physical tackle that took that same NZ player to the ground. In that little example we see what needs to happen by both teams and officials to keep everything in check.
our boys?
I was thinking, we played the Netherlands, not Mexico!
;)
physical tackling, even getting a yellow is a big part of the game.
not for Arsenal, but virtually every other team.
It is good and smart football.
I agree, we’re in danger of trying to reinvent football.
I’ve followed football for quite a while so I can recall when Italian football was reknown for its hatchet men. England is reknown for being ‘robust’ and they take pride in that. You won’t change it – the harder you push the more self-righteous resistance you’ll get. What you need to do is pinpoint the excess – like studds-up tackles above the ground. You could get traction on that argument – not condemning the whole English game. When we do that we will quite rightly be told to go elsewhere.
Meanwhile – it truely is up to Arsene to bring back a bit of robustness in to this Arsenal side. There is always a measure of self-policing that happens in sport.
Denilson is BACK!
woooo hooooooooooo!
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=750570&sec=england&cc=4716&campaign=rss&source=soccernet
Is this for real? ManU valued at 1.5B ????
Of course it is.
This non-sense about Manchester United and Liverpool being “close” to collapse and financial ruin is just a bunch of wishful/hateful thinking on the part of Arsenal fans … trying to reason why we don’t buy proven players or spend money to improve the team.
If they turned down 1 BILLION flat… I would imagine they aren’t in any trouble financially, and as I stated many times, are NOT going anywhere.
They’ve stated repeatedly, there is money for players to spend as well.
The supporters don’t like the Glazers, and are trying to enact a change in leadership.
I wish them well in doing so, as I like the idea that supporters CAN have a say. Not in the US, but it is much more likely in the EPL.
With the amount of revenue United bring in yearly, they are in no trouble at all, as the biggest and most popular team in the world.
Let’s say it’s true and Theo does make 60k a week. When fit, he’s a regular for England. How many players starting for England make less than 60k a week? Maybe David James becuase he doesn’t get paid. Playing for England is a negotiation tool that agents will use when agreeing terms with a club.
Let’s consider his return. If Walcott had been fit and playing with consistency, who doesn’t believe he’d be a better player? When he scored the hattrick for England, soon after that is when he got his new deal. The sky appeared the limit then and there were only big things to come. His development has been hampered by injuries.
If players show potential, Wenger’s trying to tie them down to long contracts. He’s learned a valuable lesson from waiting too long to extend Flamini’s contract and doesn’t want to lose a player that important to the club for free again. It’s important for Arsene to keep his team together. Since Flamini left, we havent’ lost anyone that Wenger didn’t want to lose and not get paid for them. It’s not likely we ever will again.
This is all me speculating as I’m not Arsene Wenger and don’t know why he does what he does. I’m all for hearing other’s thoughts. He’s “lost the plot” is ridiculous. Wenger created this plot and knows much more about it than any of us ever will.
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/world-cup/story/_/id/750456/ce/uk/?campaign=rss&source=soccernet&cc=4716
Hey guys, I’m happy to have a bit of discussion around this and to hear other members views. I just can’t honestly reconcile what is happening. It seems to break fundamental principles of reward and return. Whilst other clubs are recruiting young talent I get the impression we are blazing new ground in the way we reward them and give them opportunity even when their performances are below par. There is an intentionality about what Wenger is doing. If it results in a period of sustained success – these discussions will be shelved, but not necessarily forever.
I think Platini’s concerns over the manner in which big clubs are recruiting very young players has multifacted concerns. Some of this tuff will only shake down over time.
IMO..It all just comes down to what Arsene thinks he can get out of each individual player. That’s it. If he thinks paying Theo the rumored 60K is worth it coz he will deliver eventually after 3 years and it will still be ‘worth it’ despite 3 dud years.. he’ll do it. It comes down to that. It comes down again to what the manager feels is acceptable. For a fan – 3 years of low return is = to a flop buy. For AW , for all you know he discounted the first 3 years ..totally. Don’t go by his talking in the media…its a lot of eyewash. A lot of it. He will dump a youngster when:
a) He does not meet Wenger’s expectations..not ours the fan’s
b) Indiscipline despite talent
c) Too costly despite wanting to retain him
d) Another youngster i.e Ramsey shows greater potential than say Denilson who he has been loyal with this far.
By the time Platini gets his teeth into all this AW will have rejigged the youth system to fit it..or develop something else. Just like he has stayed competitive with a primarily youth policy despite under so much debt. All IMO.
Kiwi,
Let’s face it. Wage is decided by AGE in sports. Arsenal are not the only club doing things this way. And football is not the only sports that doing things this way.
Personally I don’t think it’s a problem. It would be a problem if we are the ONLY club doing things this way.
And it’s not fair to single out Theo either. Last season personally I think Walcott did pretty well for us. And you could feel he’s on the edge of a breakout. Then he got injured back in summer on England U21 duty. When he came back he soon got chopped down and out again. Players shouldn’t get blamed for injured. I bet they are the last one who wanna get put out of actions.
wait wait…
I thought Arsenal was the ONLY one, and all the other clubs want to emulate us?
now, we aren’t the only one, and other clubs are also doing this?
Perhaps if the players actually had to PROVE himself, and play well… not just show potential, it might be smarter to pay him a fantastic long-term salary at that point.
I wouldn’t be worried about another team coming in for an unproven talent, as they might never prove to be worth it.
It is a big risk… and it is insulting to proven players who have done it for years, when you get to 29, and you know at 30, you won’t get a 2 year contract, and some 17 year old is making as much as you, based on NOTHING.
Stop being so dramatic in your “Arsenal, the one and only” comments. There are plenty of things that we that other clubs do also. We’re not the only club that has smart people working there and no one has tried to insinuate such. However, we do have many qualities that other clubs don’t.
Would you rather Arsenal develop a player then when he starts playing well, Arsenal lose him to another club because we’re paying him less than descent wages? That’s how we lost Flamini. Hate him or love him, he’d become pretty important to Arsenal. We lost him for free at the end of the season and Wenger couldn’t get a suitable replacement for him.
We all recognize there is an inherent risk involved in this approach but it’s the club’s choice to make. Considering how important it is to Wenger to not have a revolving door for players in and out, this is perhaps his best solution. Time will tell if it works.
stag, i meant paying young players bigger wage than older players you idoit.
You look at NFL, NBA. Those rookies had done nothing. But what kind of money they are earning? Do u think a 30+ veteran who got rings on his fingers but with only a couple years’ career left in him earns more than a number 1 draftee who just comes out of college?
Steve (and anyone), if it is true that Walcott gets 60,000 pounds per week that equates to more than three million pounds per year. I just can’t see the merit in paying that to a player like Walcott. The only rationale is that we’re getting in early and trying to tie up the player before another club gets in.
So we pay a ludicrous amount for a player who has contributed very very little. What sort of culture are we creating for these young teenagers/men. It used to be young players were apprentices who cleaned boots and waited for an opportunity to impress. Now we put them on outrageous contracts for fear that someone else might come in.
In employment (which this is) there is a relationship between output and reward. Where is that relationship for young players like Walcott? They are paid extravagantly even though Wenger knows their on-field contribution will likely be some time away. It’s one thing to pay a Cesc Fabregas or Frank Lampard a fortune on the basis that he has and does perform but that doesn’t apply to Walcott. Something just seems very out of alignment. It’s one thing to accumulate a bevy of young talented players but quite another to create a culture of massive remuneration that bears no relationship to the return – it’s not healthy.
You’re right (of course) and it does seem like an upside-down culture. I always played sports for free (and spent money on equipment and travel, etc.) It’s strange that our society makes rich people of boys playing games….Welcome to the insanity of Capitalism…
Transfer fees and salaries are attached to potential FUTURE performances and not to past ones. This is true for all players, however, and maybe a young, promising but unproven player will actually provide better future performances than an older, legendary player. It’s always a gamble, but that’s what makes it interesting to watch and compare opinions on players, or the financial approach of different clubs.
Arsenal are clearly prioritizing building a young squad of promising players who will hopefully stay together for a while. If these players realize their potential, the continuity might pay hefty dividends. Like I said, not every player will come good and dealing with those mistakes (i.e., Theo?) seems key.
It’s hard for me (us?) to understand what the club is doing in all elements of its operation, and the finances are particularly complicated (check out Timmy the tooth/7amKickoff’s blog today, for example). My hope is that club knows what it’s doing…
Hey Stag, I’m the one who made the comments about Melo, and reminding how there were many despondent for Arsene allowing Melo to slip away at such a reasonable price of US$25 million. AND MY COMMENTS WERE SPOT ON.
Just as we can buy David Silva, Ribbery, Torres…….and many more.
Reminds me of the story: the wife who comes home from shopping. Her husband says to her, honey the bank called and we’re overdrawn. She replies, thats not possible, I still have checks left in my check book.
As you know our manager likes to play with the use of words. Obviously for you, when someone says they have an interest, it means the same as they WANT.
I just see this as a ploy by our manager – rarely does he show his hand.
he wanted Melo before, and he wants him now.
Brazil played at the Emirates this week. Surely, Wenger was there to watch the game and Melo probably had a good game, sparking Wenger to make that comment.
Wenger is all about player development and that would include a player like Melo. Maybe Wenger sees qualities in Melo; a canvas on which he can create a perfect picture. With many Juve fans disappointed in him, Juve may be interested in selling. The last player we bought from them that the fans were disappointed with, worked out well for us.
I have watched Melo and I believe he could be our long-awaited Vieira replacement. He lacks the discipline to play the holding role but for Brazil, Gilberto covers him just like Gilberto covered Vieira. This allows Melo to be a lively action guy with reduced tactical defensive responsibility. He’d be very much in the mold of Vieira or Mascherano but would need an Alonso (or Gilberto) behind him in order for the team to play well. With Ramsey, Denilson, and Diaby all failing to establish themselves in that position for various reasons, he could be a good signing. However, as a holding player, he’d be a disaster.
Robinho looks like just the type of player Wenger loves.
He definitely wanted him as well…
Maybe we’ll get Melo and Robinho this Summer…
probably can get both for less than what we get for Cesc!
;)
I see there is financial trouble for clubs in the Australian soccer league. The elephant in the room in all of this is the absolutely ridiculous sums paid to the players and for the players via remuneration and transfer fees. The basic product is incredibly lucrative – it’s the unregulated market for remuneration and transfer fees that keep spiralling upwards and lack any sense of sanity. There is no sense of logic in paying the Theo Walcott’s 60,000 pounds per week, a player who has done almost nothing for the club is rewarded with a ridiculous contract and the only justification is that if he comes good he’s on contract. This is the brilliance of the Wenger model.
Sorry about bringing the discussion down….And I guess I brought up the ManCity example because I know that’s the favored business model of one of our more prolific posters….(who, in fact, did respond below)
The reason the Club signs young, unproven players to long, relatively lucrative contracts is because the powers that be have faith in the players and the club doesn’t want them prised away too easily. Whether or not that faith is justified is a whole other question and a good topic for people like us to discuss, as is the transfer AND salary value of players we might want the team to buy (on a player by player basis).
There is ALWAYS risk with transfers AND with developing players internally. Anybody can get injured at any time…then what?
There are several of our players who may not “come good” and it might actually be heartening to see us buy out contracts or sell a player or two cheaply so that we might “cut our losses.” Many (myself included) would like to see AW admit his mistakes and this would be one way to do so.
At the same time it’s maybe an even bigger risk to buy high-priced proven talent, especially if other teams are bidding prices up. As the fine print reads…”past performance is not a guarantee of future returns.” Big Name transfers, however, prove a club’s immediate ambition, which seems to be what a certain sector demands.
Some may say that it’s all about profits, (but the shareholders take no dividends, so I don’t quite get that argument) but I would argue that Arsenal is just trying to build a strong future for itself. We are definitely leaning towards developing a host of younger players but we’ve also made some good purchases of older ones who were able to slot right in (Arshavin, Vermaelen, Sagna, Eduardo). Chamakh might be the next “mature” investment.
Still, for me, a big proof will be in our ability to retain our best players over the summer, but for now, unlike some, I’ll hope for the best on that account.
No, I don’t advocate buying EVERY big name player for any price.
Never once said that was the way to go.
But buying a few players, that are mature and proven… at more than a bargain basement price, is not a bad idea either.
If you want a reliable proven keeper or winger, go get one.
Why buy a kid who might or might not become good enough, and overpay his salary for 4 years while we determine if he will be the one, then becomes the one, and we sell them off anyway?
However, if I am ManCity, and I am trying to get into the top 4 from a place of obscurity, and have unlimited funds, no problem in going for it for big time.
(worked for Chelsea)
We are already established… we are in a different situation than City was, and even Chelsea was pre-Abromovich.
Love the play on Melo’s name Steve. :-)
I have never seen the guy so I haven’t got that type of first-hand evidence to base any judgement on. DannyT thinks he’d be a poor buy. Whilst playing for Brazil is an iconic achievement, at club level it is no barometer of capacity to play in the EPL. Bert still plays alongside Melo and frankly as much as I loved Bert he seemed to me to be the start of our descent into ‘niceness’. Vieira/Petit was a serious midfield that combined technique and hardness. Bert the invisible wall was never my idea of a complete answer. Sure it worked in 2004 yet that was in the context of a highly competitive team with other hardy players. Once the 2004 team started being deconstructed Bert looked too nice. If you can cast you minds back, Bert & Fabregas got bossed around – their games weren’t sufficiently robust in the face of the EPL challenge. That’s not to say that if they played together at international level they may have appeared wonderful. But that’s not the EPL.
I think one of Stags points is very valid, some posters recently used the fact that Melo has not performed well thus far at Juventus as a reason for not paying a large transfer fee for him – and more generally as an example as to why Arsene is right not to buy experienced players. Stag was simply stating the irony, it is now clear that Arsene did try and get the player and would do so again. So the only issue was one of Arsene’s valuation of that player.
I too have really only seen Melo in a few matches, but I wasn’t overly impressed. The situation at Juventus is very bad this season: Think Liverpool, but without their home victory vs United in the Fall….Unfortunately, with his high price tag, Melo is a lightning rod for criticism.
He is pretty tall…Denilson’s package of skills in Melo’s body might be a nice combo…but even AW isn’t smart enough to figure out how to create this…. ;-)
I find it interesting that AW is saying these things at this time. The mad days of the transfer market seem somewhat behind us, but our prudent financial approach makes us a real factor (for players not wanted by Madrid or ManCity at least). I would not be surprised if Arsenal start getting quite a few calls from teams looking to flog their “disappointments”….
And finally, while Stag can enjoy the irony all he likes, the question of valuation is HUGE (at least for any team that feels a need to balance it’s books/manage it’s debts, etc.) Man City may have the luxury of spending a total of 75 million pounds on Robinho, Adebayor and Santa Cruz, but I would bet that even some of their supporters would be disappointed with their TOTAL of 16 goals this season. That’s just one example, of course, and it doesn’t even discuss the salaries handed out on that team–Robinho on $160,000 pounds per week….. hmmm….Maybe Theo will turn out a bargain? He’s been a bright spot in the England friendly today at Wembley (which they are losing 0-1 at half time….)
I’m not sure where ManC came into this discussion. I never referenced them nor did I say player valuation wasn’t important.
As for Theo Walcott being a bargain you missed the point. What is the rationale for paying Walcott 60,000 per week? How can an industry do that and talk about financial sense and sustainability? It’s absolute nonsense, obscene even. Society has come around to criticise CEO’s and bankers yet we overlook the elephant in the room when it comes to football.
We lavish reward on young players who have done nothing on the basis they might come good. This is one of those ocassions when we need to ponder a little on what we’re saying.
Anybody watching any Int’l football…Looks like Theo will start the England match AND (more importantly) it is on Fox Soccer Plus (which is in the former Setanta channel?)
Meanwhile, Germany-Argentina are on GolTV, and Netherlands-USA is on ESPN
The England match has kicked off (with Terry mis-kicking woefully with his first touch….) but it isn’t in HD WTF?
Anyways, I’ll sit in the GDC for a bit if anyone wants to chat…
Arsene Wenger declares his interest in Felipe Melo!
LOOOOOOOOL
I read on this site that… not sure who…
was CROWING about…
Many of you wanted Wenger to sign Melo…
he’s a flop, want some salt with that crow… blah blah blah!
Now Wenger has come out and said HE wants the player!!!!!!!!
Hilarious.
save that salt, you might need it.
He’s only a flop in Italy because it’s such a soft league… ;-)
According to his Wikipedia page, his big moment this season was getting sent off for an elbow vs Inter and instigating a fight between other players on the pitch….Maybe after the Ramsey injury AW sees Melo as the ‘ard man we need….(which would be doubly ironic given his name…)
And of course, we might be able to get him on the cheap…. ;-)
And speaking of interesting footballing names…Maybe we can get “Mellow” so cheap that Juve will throw-in that goal-keeper with the sissified name after Italy flame out in the WC….
Wenger = Genius !!!!
I think the keeper might be a bit too old for Arsenal, as he is older than most of the father’s of our kids!
By your rationale then both Hleb and Flamini are flops becuase they’ve both failed to be productive in the new teams they went to?
I don’t think because he went to Juventus and didn’t do as well as he did at Fiorentio his is a flop. Juve have had all sorts of issues not the least of which is their management. Melo still manages to play first team ball for Brazil and was very very productive at Fiorentina.
Rationale? logic? You’re asking too much….In fact you’re sounding like some sort of mamby, pamby French Professor type… It’s about passion and commitment (and panic) and the latest result…Don’t you get it? ;-)
More seriously….Fans want results NOW (like Veruca Salt) and if they can’t get results they want big shows of ambition. Yet huge price tags put BIG pressure on players. I’ve said it before…But we need to imagine the outcry if we had payed 30 mil pounds for Arshavin (given his current production) in order to have gotten him 4 months earlier. Melo for 25 million Euros IS a disappointment. Melo + Buffon for 20 million might be some nice business… ;-)
Stag, I referred to Flamini as an enforcer because there has only been one season since Vieira left where Arsenal weren’t considered a soft touch and that was the year Flamini played regularly. He was the closest thing we’ve had in recent years. If you watch any random number of games from that season, you’ll find that whenever one of our players got hit cynically, Flamini was the first one to jump into somebody’s face with the shoves and the pushes.
As for how Arsenal manages contracts, it’s a common approach to have players on long contracts so if they decide to leave, you can demand a descent transfer fee. I understand the wages won’t guarantee a player staying. However, if a player decides to leave, after the Anelka episode, Wenger’s willing to let them go. The contracts ensure Arsenal get paid properly. Anelka-23M, Overmars-25M, Adebayor-25M. Even Petit-15M, Vieira-13M, Henry-14M, and Toure- 15M were all near thirty with their best days clearly behind them. It’s good business. You simply never know when a young players going to have a breakout season.
Everyone is trying to follow the Arsenal mold. Teams want to have money, not borrow it from the bank and pay ridiculous interest. Teams want to claim three million in gate fees alone after every home game. Teams want to have state of the art facilities. Teams want to avoid overpaying for players during the winter window. Notice how none of the big four bought during this January window? Who started that trend? Everyone wants to have a business that makes more than it spends and still manages to be relatively successful. How many owners and managers have come out and publicly declared that they want to follow the Arsenal mold? Chelsea are trying but, despite their “football idol” campaign, they’re not producing enough good youth players. Arsenal are the cutting edge of the sword. If you don’t believe me, time will tell. Sorry I wrote so long.
I believe “we” as Arsenal supporters think “we are the cutting edge”, and that everyone wants to emulate us.
In the outside world, non-Arsenal fans, it is NOT the case.
I don’t know any supporters of other teams that want to be like us, and NOT win anything, sell off the star players, and don’t buy to improve the team in transfer windows.
sorry.
I’m not buying it, and I know a fair number of supporters of other teams.
Now, if you are talking about teams?
Some want to WIN…(United, Chelsea, ManCity)… and others are interested in making profits.
These are totally different things.
We appear to be trying to make a profit first, and remain competitve second.
http://www.allgreatquotes.com/roy_keane_quotes.shtml
“I’d waited long enough. I fucking hit him hard. The ball was there (I think). Take that you cunt. And don’t ever stand over me sneering about fake injuries.”
Talking about Alf Inge Haaland tackle, quoted in book Keane – the Autobiography
“Even in the dressing room afterwards, I had no remorse. My attitude was, fuck him. What goes around comes around. He got his just rewards. He fucked me over and my attitude is an eye for an eye.”
Talking about Alf Inge Haaland tackle, Observer Sport Monthly Magazine
Stag, you didn’t already know this?
That does not say he TRIED TO BREAK HIS LEG?!
I read that he admitted to TRYING to break his leg…
I hadn’t seen that quote, because it isn’t a quote.
If that doesn’t convince u Stag.. nothing will. This is a sick act. Tomorrow Ryan Shawcross will stand up and do a Roy Keane on Aaron Ramsey and you’ll applaud him for his ‘ability’ to mix it? Sad if thats the case.. IMO
Interesting stats LDE.
I think it also shows that – the English game is well-known for its aggressive nature part of it because the referees there soft of bend the rules and ALLOWING it so.
I mean, if you take teams like Stoke City the likes to play in Europe, refereed by European referees, they would be lucky to end up with 11 men every game.
Cos some of their so called “hard but fair” tackles are deemed to be “bookable offense” in the eyes of referees anywhere else outside of UK.
So they can no longer adopt a “get in your face” approach. No wonder no English team have even reached the UEFA Cup final since Liverpool.
Aren’t you forgetting Middlesborough? ;)
To add to DAG’s stats from a blogger:
Do you want a funny statistic? broken legs per league – here the current count
(1992 – today): EPL – 11 Serie A – 0 La Liga – 1 Bundesliga – 1
Another funny statistic that goes some way to explaining that:
EPL: 1181 Yellow, 63 Red, Total 1244
La Liga: 2017 Yellow, 143 Red, Total 2163
Serie A: 1686 Yellow, 119 Red, Total 1805
Hmm..The EPL has the lowest number of cards so clearly it is the least physical of the three leagues. This means that the English league is packed with fragile silky finese players who can’t take it like a man.
Which is why I think the English league should immediately expel all foreign players and pack the league with Martin Taylor & Shawcross type of players. Only then can real British type of manly football be played. None of this fancy passing stuff.
Joking aside. As per Jonathan Wilson in his book Inverting the Pyramid, in the early days of football’s development in England:
..”the game was all about dribbling: passing, cooperation and defending perceived as somehow inferior. Head-down charging, certainly, was preferred to thinking”…
I guess in some ways the game has progressed indeed but not for all teams. That is to be expected.
Those stats say it all….Thanks LDE.
Do you know over what period the stats on cards given is from?
I’m guessing 1992 again. Same as broken legs.
As for no need for deterrence, why then does the USA pay more than the rest of the world on its military? Relying on the referee’s for protection is like relying on the UN. The best you’ll be able to do is punish the offender for war crimes after the event – and let’s face it, if you’re still in any doubt, England is far more concerned about diving and spitting than Arsenal’s players suffering leg-breaks.
Yes I advocate for more stringent penalties, yet, get real, before that can happen there has to be agreement that there is a serious problem. England doesn’t agree. This is the English premier league.
In the meantime, in the real world, if you want to protect your team you do what everyone in every sport does, you show that you aren’t to be messed with. That’s life, kids at school get bullied, people at work get bullied, you stand up to it in measured ways. We’re getting bullied and have done increasingly since we deconstructed our last successful side. There is a correlation.
agree 100% kiwi.
Just Just hypothetically.. if we win the league this year .. will we qualify as “successful” . Will we have turned a corner then? Coz it would kind of prove that we can win ugly or whatever? Would you still want an enforcer?
Your initial question doesn’t need answering.
On “would I still want an enforcer”
For me the issue is losing the soft tag. Whether we need a single particular player, or a change in attitude, or a couple of guys stepping up, matters not (to me). I’m with Andez and others when they say how they love seeing an Arsenal player (like Cesc) dishing out a foul in a measured way.
I well remember Sagna when he first arrived. Someone fouled one of our players, shortly after Sagna fouled the offender. It was a thing of sporting beauty. There was no way it was dangerous, but it was saying, “hey, just watch it”.
If you still disagree, try and answer why Manchester United aren’t a victim of instances of this fringe thuggery. Do teams try and bully ManU?
That’s all I’m saying – it is collective. Have 11 players be combative. Not 1 player who will SIT and kick. ManU are actually an example of this – collective combativeness on a football pitch. Who’s the enforcer there? Scholes? Carrick? Hargreaves? Anderson? Fletcher? You might say Fletcher.. but he is more a Flamini type .. who can play reasonably well as that role demands and chip in with goals. So no ManU do not have an enforcer and they’ve won 3 titles in a row with 11 players stepping up , not 1 person ‘kicking everyone’. Fletcher’s close .. as I say.. but he’s not a pure Mascherano type sit behind the half line player. That’s a waste of a player…in our system..where its so attack minded. Song is that player this season.
Of course I would still want a player or players… plural, that are physical, aggressive and not afraid to take a yellow (or even red) card when necessary.
Roy Keane and Patrick Vieira don’t come down the street very often. They were really good players and great leaders on/off the pitch.
You aren’t going to make Arsenal’s finesse squad into that type of player.
I’d say Carrick, Hargreaves, Fletcher are ALL that type of player.
They have players that KNOW when to take a professional or hard foul…
it can be in retaliation to someone taking down one of their players, OR… sometimes as important, to STOP the flow of a play.
(which happens against us all the time)
On Keane/Vieira. As often, the truth is more complicated than the masses can articulate.
Keane was an enormously talented player right from his days at Nottingham Forest, and then even after a serious injury that reduced his physical capacity. He was also a superb on-field leader of Manchester United the most successful club team in our generation. Yet there’s another darker truth that runs parallel to the praise – that he was a very nasty even scary guy with a horrid vengeful temper that draws a parallel to the IRA and their disgusting ways.
Notice that Arsene hasn’t made any comment since his post game reaction. I wonder if he has given up too.
One of the funniest articles I have seen is Arsene is now pursuing Melo (who is seen as a reckless midfielder in Italy) to replace Ramsey.
http://goonerholic.com/?p=2178
I meant to say Keane broke Haland’s leg, not Busst’s.
In fact, Keane ENDED Haaland’s career.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/m/man_utd/2189742.stm
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=roy+keane+alf+inge&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=2QqOS_qMAo2IsgOI7b2xCA&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CCUQqwQwAw#
Entering into the “hard man” debate, I don’t think it prevents player injury if someone thinks you’re tough. Djibril Cisse got both his legs broken playing for Liverpool and they were no slouches. Likewise, no one considered Arsenal a soft touch when Flamini was in the side. He was our “enforcer” in midfield, however, he failed preventing Eduardo getting chopped down.
It’s likely to happen in the BPL because of the nature of the coaches and referees. Coaches grew up playing in the old English First Division or the EPL in it’s infancy. Likewise, referees grew up watching that thinking that’s how a proper English match should be played. The football was atrocious. If you don’t know or don’t remember, I recommend you watch a first division or even League one match this weekend. That was what the English first division/EPL used to look like.
Stag, I heard you mention Keane and Vieira earlier and the impact they made. First, I disagree with you using those two comparatively. Keane was a dirty player. I remember when he broke Busst’s leg, ending his career and actually admitted it was intentional. That man is an absolute shit bag to me (modern day Joey Barton). While Vieira did have a physical edge to his game, that wasn’t what made him great. He was an absolute dynamo of a player. For me, he was the best player in the world; a proper CM that could do EVERYTHING. Coaches the world over are still looking for the next Patrick Vieira. There was no one like Vieira, (Michael Essien is the closest thing).
Most of Vieira’s red cards came due to retaliation – like spitting on a player, kicking RvN for a bad tackle, etc. He was NOT a dirty player.
On the other hand, Keane was a dirty player. How a player can admit that he intentionally injured an opponent and get away is a complete mystery. It can happen only in England and only to ManU.
Keane was dirty, because he wore a ManU shirt,
Vieira… was considered such by opposing teams.
I don’t remember the Keane breaking someone’s leg, or admitting it was intentional.
Got a quote or a link? I’d like to see it… and I am not being cheeky…
Flamini as an enforcer? you have to be kidding?
He was nothing of the sort… he worked his ass off, and tirelessly tracked back, but he was not one who was known for crunching tackles.
He couldn’t have held Vieira’s water jug.
Keane admitted it in his biography. But outside of intentionally hurting someone, from what I remember, when he really had no intention other than to win the ball he was a fairly decent tackler. A skill that Shawcross lacks.
No, Keane is dirty because he admitted that he purposely broke someone’s leg and ended their career. It has nothing to do with him playing at Man U.
And as for ending Haland’s career. If I remember correctly, although that lef that Keane hurt took him out of the game for a while, it was his other leg that ended his career. Not that it makes Keane’s tackle in any way excusable. I might be off on this though… Anyone else?
I watched the replay of the match. Late in the match, Cesc was pushed to the ground by a Stoke player without the ball. Needless to say, the ref did nothing. With the commentator shouting “surely that must be a foul”…
Moment later, Cesc took matters into his own hand, chopping down a Stoke player from behind. Running back to the Arsenal half, Cesc raise a finger and made that “shhhhhhhh” shut up gesture towards the Stoke City bench, Tony Pullis’ direction. As if saying to Pullis “hey, that’s the way you wanna play huh?!”
The camera panned to Pullis. He was furious. Jumping up and down on the sideline, probably urging the ref to “do something about it”.
That to me just sums up how those so-called “hard man” really is about. They like to GIVE, but don’t like to TAKE. When someone took one of their men out, they reacted just EXACTLY like what they accused us for – moaning, complaining about it.
Anyway, that was a Master Card moment for me – PRICELESS. Put a smile on my face watching Tony Pullis’ reaction.
I remember exactly the play you are talking about.
It WAS funny, and Cesc’s reaction was great.
We need MORE of it.
I only noticed that incident when I watched the replay. On the live match, my mind was preoccupied by Ramsey’s injury perhaps, and kinda like half dreaming watching the rest of the match.
Gotta give credit to the lads for regaining their focus and went on to win the match. It’s not easy under circumstance like that.
here’s a link to the Cesc shhh
http://vodpod.com/watch/3153304-cesc-fabregas-vs-tony-pulis
Wenger has an idea about how he wants to run the club. His ideas are quite revolutionary; so much in fact that the rest of the world is trying to build a team on his mold. Who else can boast a team that seriously competes for awards such as the BPL and Champions League every year without going into ridiculous debt? Not only that but if they decide to buy a player for big bucks, they don’t have to go to the bank. Every club in the world wants to be there. Wenger just took Arsenal there first.
I haven’t been to the Emirates yet but I’ve been to Highbury and I can tell you that there was some money spent at that place. The Emirates must be truly mind-blowing. The players and staff are among the best paid in the world and the facilities are dynamite. Arsenal had to pay big bucks for that. Where Arsenal is stingy with money is over-paying other clubs for players; nothing wrong with that approach.
The reason Arsenal players are on such long contracts with good wages is simple; Wenger wants to keep his team together. He preaches continuity and keeping the team together every season. If his players are all on long-term contracts with good wages, that makes it difficult for them to leave. It also makes it difficult for another team to match their wages. That’s how Wenger keeps the team together. If another team can match our wages, then they can afford a ridiculous transfer fee. We should be compensated properly if a player is decides to leave. Imagine how much we could have gotten for Flamini or Edu if that had contracts when they left. Wenger doesn’t want to lose players like that again.
frankly, the Emirates is a big corporate monstrosity, devoid of ANY character…
I don’t see any teams trying to do what we are doing… either they aren’t capable, because they don’t have the money we have, or they realize they don’t have the time… in which you can fail to win anything.
overpaying players salaries hasn’t really kept any star players here, we sell them all off.
When Cesc goes, in the next year or so, we’ll have nobody left even close to being a star.
Who’s emulating that?
Who is emulating that?
Well if I remember correctly, Spurs are about to break ground on a new stadium.
West Ham will take over one of the 2012 Olympic Stadiums.
LIverpool want the funding not for players so they can build a new stadium.
Chelsea have looked into building a new one as have the Glazers at United.
Why you ask – they see what Arsenal have done to get a cash cow and they want them some too.
It is the same effect that Camden Yards had in the early 90’s. This new gleaming jewel of ballpark comes out and for a few years it is an oasis in a sea of outdated structures. Soon everyone has one and they get bigger and better all the time – ending with the unfriendly ugliness that is the New Yankees stadium.
The ripple effect cascades to the NFL where each team builds its own stadium.
Stag you are absolutely naive if you don’t think that the EPL clubs that have the means to will start building their own versions of the Emirates.
If anything the EPL has shown that is following US sports. From TV and merchandise revenue to overseas TV rights and players salaries.
It is only a matter of time my friend.
When smaller teams, with less money… start to tear down their unique stadiums in NEIGHBORHOODS, and build gleaming monstrosities without character, the EPL will have lost its soul.
I wouldn’t travel to England again to watch a match at the Emirates alone.
It will either have to be an away match, or accompanied by another match at QPR or Fulham or Charlton… for example.
The experience is what it is all about, and I can go to big boring stadiums in the US!
The Emirates is a fantastic stadium, you can talk about character all you want it is far nicer than Highbury.
Stag what is your problem? Will you ever be satisfied?
But for God’s sake, enough with the Ryan support rallying. Even Rooney was in on it. Or the support for Terry after what he did. The sheer stupidity of it all is quite amazing. And to think that a career ending tackle is nothing compared to if a player does not shake the opponents hand. Or if Wenger does not offer his hand to another manager, the world comes to an end. All morality starts and ends with a f*ing handshake apparently. If Wenger had not shook Pulis’ hand after the game, the media would have blamed Wenger for bringing the game down.
————————————————-
Very well said Sachin.
I am not a saint, nor want to pretend to be one. All I know is we grow up being taught what’s RIGHT, and what’s WRONG.
Cheating is wrong. Sleeping with your good pal’s girl is wrong. Breaking a fellow professional’s leg is wrong.
If I got kids now, I would have told them the same – those things are WRONG. No matter how people try to sugarcoat it, or to find EXCUSES for them.
The sad thing is, in the world of English football, you got more people coming out to support and jump on the sinners’ defence than the victims.
What kind of the world we are living in? If those people’s kids grow up to become a twat, a thug, an asshole, Don’t blame the kids. Cos these were the messages they were getting when they were young – sleeping with your pal’s girl is OKAY. Breaking someone’s leg is OKAY because you are simply committed to the cause, winning at all cost.
Strange isn’t it. It’s all inverted. Now the fouls were always there against Arsenal but once the force field that PV and the old legacy of GG was lifted, then the dangers became more visible and the young team was left more exposed. Not a pleasant situation to be in.
And now because of so many media outlets and papers, every non-story is covered and blown up. Yet, as one negative story comes up, 3 more positive stories outlining the outstanding character of some one who cheated or was caught drunk driving are pushed out.
Have you read Vialli’s The Italian Job? If not, try to get it because he has done a great job in looking at the differences between English and Italian footballing cultures. I wish he does do an update version of the book as plenty of negative stories have developed in the few years since his book.
Sorry folks – my hosting company is pissing the eff off.
This is interesting since 1992 the number of broken legs per league are as such:
EPL: 11
Serie A: 0
La Liga: 1
Bundesliga: 1
thks for the stats DAG. Proved that we are not writing friction.
any idea on which teams the leg breakers came from? and were they competent?
This just means the English FA need to step up, make an example of Shawcross and anyone else going forward who causes a long-term injury with a horror tackle.
Start with 10 to 15 matches… and I think that will have a pretty big effect.
Until then, its game on… where anything goes.
Those of you hoping for Arsene’s departure might want to read this from Ivan Gazidis-
“I think it is very difficult to encapsulate in any succinct way what Arsene Wenger has done for this club,” Gazidis told the Daily Telegraph. “His discipline and his vision are why we are in a new stadium and why we are redefining the way the game can be played. He has created a young squad that has a tremendous future without having the resources that some other teams have.
“Those achievements are down to Arsene’s sense of responsibility not to himself but to the club. When he interviewed for the job, Danny Fiszman [an Arsenal director] asked him what are your ambitions for the club? Arsene said: ‘That when I leave, it will be in a better state than when I arrived’.
“I think Arsene has accomplished that but I also think his legacy is not written yet. There’s no diminishment in his passion, competitive edge or ambition. Arsene’s work is not finished.
“We have probably the best club stadium in the world and the youngest squad in the entire Premier League which is competing to win the league this year – that would be unprecedented for a team this age.
“We are not in competition with Real Madrid or Manchester City to spend £80 million on a player. That is not sustainable for any club and certainly not for us. There is no such thing as a free lunch and I think that people who think that there is are naïve or thinking in a very short-term way.
“I think all clubs are trying to get towards a self-sustainable model. We are in the fortunate position of already being there.”
However, Gazidis is acutely aware that the club’s idealistic approach must yield trophies.
“It is something we are very aware of,” he added. “The ultimate aspiration is not to produce a wonderful business model, the reason we adhere to those principles is so that we can preserve the values of the club and create the foundation on which we can deliver success on the pitch.”
In that case, if we don’t win something this year, we are pretty much screwed, aren’t we?
Arsene will not change his ways – he won’t get a proper GK, he won’t concentrate on defence, set pieces, etc., he won’t get an enforcer kind of player, he will continue to hope that beautiful and technical football should and will always win.
On the other hand, The English won’t change either. They will continue to be aggressive against us, continue to break legs and injure players, continue to moan about Arsenal’s softness, continue to deny us blatant penalties, etc.
Oh well!
Not a surprise at all.
If you are on the board, why would you want to change a situation where we make more profit that everyone else, and we don’t even have to try to compete with the best teams?
As I said previously, the ONLY way for the AFC to change, is to be FORCED to, by the supporters.
(see ManU and what they are trying to do)
If the 60,000 show up every week, no matter what, NOTHING will change.
If the fans say F U, we aren’t paying the highest prices in the world to watch you make profits and not spend it on improving the team, and we are NOT going to ANY FA Cup matches in which you aren’t trying to win.
Then, maybe it will appear as a blip on the boards radar.
Until then, it will all continue… same as it ever was.
Still the ManUre supporters contine to fill the stands.
And the Glazers have told the consortium that wanted to by them for £1 billion – told them pound sand.
Why do the fans come – because there is always someone to fill that seat.
Look at the Philadelphia Eagles – the fans HATE Andy Reid and Donovan McNabb but the waiting list for season tickets is 20 years long.
The Eagles actually present a pseudo-comparison to Arsenal – except they haven’t won a championship since 1960. you have a team that over the last 10 years has been the most succesful it has ever been. A coach who does it his way regardless of what the fans or the press says and falls short of a championship every year. And he has an owner that backs him regardless and a fan base where if you don’t like what you see and leave your seats there is always someone to take their place.
In order for fan protests like this to actually work – it would have to go well beyond the 60K who show up to a match every week. You’d basically have to get over 75% of the fan base to revolt. Because there is always someone willing to go to the match, support the club.
Simply put fan protests don’t work.
I don’t agree with fan protests not being able to work.
I believe ManU’s supporters have a chance to force the Glazers to sell the team.
We will see if they can stay away for a few matches, not buy merchandise, and that will exact LOTS of pressure.
If they can get 10,000 fans to NOT renew their season tickets (which is the goal)… it could definitely have an effect.
If the fans WANT change, they can enact it.
US Football is pretty much its own entity… it is once per week, for 16 weeks… people plan for it, it is easy to follow, and you only have to invest 1 day for 3 hours… its PERFECT for US consumption.
I think you are wrong.
After every strike in any major sport – after much grumbling by the fans of millionaire athletes – what inevitably happens – like sheep they all return. Why? Because with all it’s warts we like our sports.
The fans will not force the Glazers to sell. Ultimately it will be whoever puts £2 billion (£1.5 for the Glazers and £.5 to payoff the debt)
The Glazers don’t want to sell because even with the debt issues – they are still making money for themselves. They could care less what the fans think as long as they make money they will stay as the owners.
Anyway – even with all of the Glazers problems – they’re still a winning side. Now if they were to not win anything with the Glazers in charge you might have something but overall – I doubt the fans will have any say in what the Glazers do with United. Ultimately it will come down to who they can make the most money off of.
Couple of things in light of this injury nightmare – all the talk is about people crossing their fingers and hoping Wayne Rooney doesn’t get hurt pre-WC.
In an interview today at the England training session Steven Gerrard said this – “What does that say about all of us? Are we crap then?”
CLASSIC. I am no fan of his but that statement is awesome.
Another thing – turns out that Hleb is eager to come back to the Premier League. Seems that 6 months after he went to Nou Camp – he wrote to Arsene saying he was wrong to leave and wanted to come back – seems he burned that bridge.
Supposedly interested parties are the team that wants to be Arsenal – Manchester City and Villa.
Nothing wrong with that, he screwed up, and apologized for his mistake.
Hleb is a good player, and will help Villa or City if he goes there.
But why would he want to come back to the EPL, where thugs are destroying football, while Wenger single-handedly is trying to drag the game out of the stone-age?
This annoying British mentality about supporting their own players who make rash tackles makes me sick. Ramsey is welsh so not like he is some foreigner across the ocean who should be left to roll on the ground in pain. What if he was English and was on the verge of playing in England’s world cup squad? Would things still be ignored?
But for God’s sake, enough with the Ryan support rallying. Even Rooney was in on it. Or the support for Terry after what he did. The sheer stupidity of it all is quite amazing. And to think that a career ending tackle is nothing compared to if a player does not shake the opponents hand. Or if Wenger does not offer his hand to another manager, the world comes to an end. All morality starts and ends with a f*ing handshake apparently. If Wenger had not shook Pulis’ hand after the game, the media would have blamed Wenger for bringing the game down.
Once Arsenal were labeled dirty, now soft. On the other hand, the real thugs have continued to sprout like weeds in between the time Arsenal went from being dirty to soft. Teams such as Stoke, Hull, Bolton will never ever win the Premier League and they are managed by inept managers who are too lazy to improve the technical abilities of their players so they encourage their players to do whatever to win games. But hey who cares really. It’s only Arsenal. All is well.
You can never change the Brits. That mentality goes way way back to 1500 century. That is how they are. But say it happens to one of them, all hell breaks loose. Too bad though. That is why I am not supporting England this world cup. I hope they won’t make it pass quarter final.
I am sure there are plenty of British people who do voice contradicting and sane opinions but it seems when it comes to leg breaking tackles, their voices are always drowned out.
Why are you lot watching the ENGLISH PREMIER LEAGUE if you are so against the country, their national team, and their league?
The style of play in the league, INCLUDING the physical play, is what makes the league THE MOST POPULAR IN THE WORLD.
Again, you think the Stokes Hulls and Boltons are there just to make up the schedule for the big 4, that they should roll over and accept their position in the league as fodder for the big teams.
FECK THAT.
If you don’t like the LEAGUE, watch dancing.
well watching the english league mostly because of Arsenal. And I am certain that the physical play does not make it the most popular league in the world. Go around the world and most people including kids talk about beautiful football and want to emulate slick moves and score wonder goals. Why is Brazil so well supported? Do you think most people around the world want to emulate Shawcross?
Was the english league the most popular before the mid 90’s and all the foreigners came? No. If the league only consisted of Stoke and Bolton, not many would watch it around the world.
Now, I certainly don’t expect Stoke etc to make up the numbers nor do I want them to roll over. But do they have to break player’s legs? And if they do break legs, I don’t expect people to stay quiet. That’s all.
And I do watch dancing by the way :) not as much as I watch Arsenal, Serie A, La Liga and all but I do catch it every now and then. Ofcourse, there are various styles of dancing and I find some very boring so I won’t watch those.
who watches the Brazilian League?
Its shown some, but I don’t watch it. I don’t think the level of play is good.
If you believe Shawcross TRIED to break his leg, you’ve lost the plot.
It was his fault, and the tackle was out of control, but he wasn’t trying to break his leg.
Sorry.
If the La Liga is so wonderful, with all its slick passing and the lower teams even passing the ball, why isn’t it as popular as England?
Perhaps because there is little to NO competition for the top 2 teams?
Perhaps because the quality of play isn’t as good as England.
When they get a few teams into the final 4 of the CL again, it might approach England, but its not there yet.
Who had a more popular league in the 90’s?
That’s when I started watching, and it was the best league then too… that’s why I followed it.
Did I say the Brazilian league? I said Brazil, which means the national team. If I wanted to talk about their league, I would have said Brazilian league.
No I don’t believe he TRIED to break his leg but when players go in with WILD challenges, legs WILL be broken. When players are reckless, then someone will get hurt.
I said before the mid 90’s and from where I was Serie A was the tops. Only after the English league started getting those foreign players such as Gullit, etc did it start to overtake the Serie A. In my area, Liverpool were the most popular English team but most people followed the Italian league with Milan and their Dutchmen, Juve with Baggio, etc.
And if I had a choice to watch Bolton vs Blackburn or Osasuna vs Espanyol, I would watch the Osa-Esp game. Why? Because atleast in the Osa-Esp fixture there is a chance that some player on one of the teams might actually kick the ball in the first half unlike in the Bolton-Blackburn game where the players might not even need the ball until the second half or so.
Didn’t plan to come back before season end ..but I guess there’s no way I could stay away after this. I’ve read all of the stuff here and would like to make a few of my own points.
— Should teams be ‘committed’ against every team that’s better than them? What other choice do they have?
Be committed by all means. Run hard, slide tackle, long ball, towel throws whatever. All ok. Destroying people’s legs isn’t part of it. It doesn’t matter whether you mean it or not. It happened. Try and store that in your DNA and use it to become a better footballer , if nothing else. Improve your tackling. Look at videos of Maldini who at 40+ still has the grace of a gazelle while tackling. Learn. I think Everton is an example of an extremely physical team who are not a sickening dirty thuggish team. Yes they have Phil Neville.. but by and large its an aggressive team who still maintains that balance. The over physical idiotic coaches who tell their players to ‘stick it up em lads’ can learn a thing or two from DM.
— Is Arsenal victimized?
Its like this. You tell a calm kid on the playground that you have to fight more and not be so calm. So the kid gets a little more aggressive. So you tell him, not enough – the guys whom you’re playing against are real good (Read Arsenal) and that effort at physicality wont do and you have to be more committed and ‘go for it’. If you ‘go for it’ you WILL win and they will chicken out.You don’t tell him to go break legs but in the heat of the moment when you’re fighting a war in the middle of the park and you’re tired , its easy for a tired mind to take the easy option and jump in with two feet. You may get away with plaudits for a splendid tackle or what happened might happen. For all the ‘committed’ managers , here’s an option. Teach them the art of tackling, teach them interception, teach them positioning, teach them the shoulder barge and clever upper body usage.. even clever fouling if you may to stop a counter on the halfline… but not ridiculous rubbish like .. jumping in two footed or terrible from behind tackling or elbows into people’s faces. Learn from all the great defenders that you’ve played against. There’s a difference between physicality and commitment..a big difference.
— Do we need an enforcer?
No. We do not. I am with HTS on this. 100%. Maybe Mazza too if he’s reading this. Its taken us so long to move to a style where everyone moves forward and even the only true DM we have is a ball player that I’m loath to give it up for a kicker in the middle of the park. We have mixed it without that player, we have won, we no longer need that player. I want it to remain as pure as possible. You have enough leaders on the pitch. Yes. Cesc, Clichy, TV, Sol, Rosicky, RVP(when he’s fit) , Gallas, even Denilson are all leaders. You’ll see all of it eventually. Brings me back to a thread I’d posted – on the need of 1 captain on the football field. I do not think its needed – if if everyone do their jobs.
— Do you need friends?
We’ve not had them all along. We won’t have any ..anytime soon. We don’t need to drink wine after games to build camraderie. Assuming you do that, what gurantee do you have the media will be kinder? And idiots like Paul Parker won’t spout trash? None. Lets be our own men. Just win something and shut the lot of the idiots up. All of them. You do not need approval from a load of individuals who want you to fail desperately all the time. Take feedback yes.. but from the right people… not the rabid media and the vast population of knee jerk fans all over the Internet(YAMA is relatively free IMO).
This season?
It is US Against Them. That is the theme. Seige mentality. Go and grab this boys. Keep fighting every step. If you don’t get there..dont worry..but keep fighting 100%..all the way. Go Gunners!
Welcome back LDE.
Been here Tai. Just not commenting.
one thing I’ll debate…
we have not WON anything without “that player”… an enforcer if you want to call it that.
Have NOT WON A THING since Patrick Vieira’s last kick of a ball at the club.
This is NOT a coincidence.
I watched a few minutes of highlights of the Stoke game. What really struck me was the vulnerability of our players. I wasn’t consciously thinking of this, it just hit me again and again, I couldn’t help but see opportunity after opportunity for another Ramsey-like vile foul. The game is played at an enormously fast pace and there is a perverse sense that by keeping the at your feet – your even more at risk!
from Sir Alex…..
“Sir Alex rang Ryan after United’s game on Sunday to give him his support and told him that he shouldn’t miss out on England duty. These things do happen, unfortunately, and Sir Alex still thinks a lot of Ryan after having him for so long at Manchester United.
“He knows him as well as I do and knows he is not the sort of player to go out to deliberately hurt anyone. Sir Alex had obviously seen the incident and believed, like I do, that it was an accident. He told him he will get over it, even though he’s hurting now.
“Ryan really appreciated the call and it has given him a bit of a lift at a very difficult time.”
Aren’t we all so glad of the support Ryan is getting – it’s the Eduardo aftermath all over again. Anyone still doubt that we need to take care of ourselves?????
Fergie is obviously pissed that Ramsey didn’t join ManU. If he had and this had happened, I am sure the response would have been different.
Yeah, if one of Fergie’s players gets taken out, hell would break loose.
yeah Deja vu. And I have a feeling that unless Arsenal does something, this will happen again, not after another 2 years but in the next year.
Besides the English Media protecting inept English players over clear fouls, I can’t forget how much Rooney used to get away with his tantrums and constant swearing abuse. Yet, when Javier mascherano asked something to the ref, he was sent off. I am convinced if Rooney did a Cantona like kung-fu kick, then Rooney would not be banned. Instead, the media and Fergie might ask not to “kill the nice lad” and instead blame the abusive fan. Heck, if Rooney does something dangerous between now and the World Cup, nothing will be done because that might disrupt England’s chances. Argh.
The whole Ramsey injury thing is sickening. Which is why I keep thinking that Arsenal have to win the title this season, much more than in previous seasons. They have to find a way to win despite all the kicking thugs around otherwise the thugs will keep winning. Not sure what can be done with the current team but away trips to Hull and Birmingham lay in wait and as Tim mentioned in his blog (7amkickoff), there is evidence for nastiness there. Heck, a trip away to Spurs does not seem so bad after all. Atleast Spurs want to play football, then proceed to score a goal, miss countless chances and then Arsenal makes a comeback. That seems easier to stomach then seeing Arsenal players get taken out.
If Dein was still around, would the FA have done anything? Did Dein have any say in the FA in his role at Arsenal? The thing is since the Diaby injury happened when Dein was still around and nothing was done means even Dein might not have been able to help out. So that means only Arsenal have to find the solution themselves, as others have pointed out. If Arsenal cannot openly foul other teams via an enforcer type of player, then Arsenal might as well get some ghost players to come onto the pitch and invisibly protect the players like a Star Trek like force field :) That way, the inept english players will be seen kicking thin air or tripping on their feet and no commentator would ever be able to blame Arsenal.
For those that remember AA, I had written something after Eduardo was injured and the following was the last paragraph in that piece. Unfortunately, this is no longer a secret society and one can add Stoke’s name to the latest recruit. As it stands, I think only a few teams in the EPL are not members of this society. Maybe everyone except Arsenal..
Football’s Secret Society:
There is a secret footballing society that exists in England. The members trace their lineage back to the old days when the game first caught on in England. Currently, the members meet once a month just on the skirts of Stonehenge when the sun goes down. Some of the current Premier League managers sit on the member’s board. Most of the conversations revolve about the current nature of the game and how the game has gone ’soft’. The members long for the old days of the game when players never shied away from a tackle, when players were willing to shed blood for their team. The meetings always end when all the members quietly look at Argentina’s goal against Serbia from the 2006 World Cup where Argentina strung together 24 passes to put the ball into the net. The members are always horrified to look at this goal and vow that their English Premier League will never become like this. Never will one team manage more than a few passes before a player gets taken out. They want to preserve a strong league where players can take it like a man.
The only thorn in this member’s sight is Arsenal, the only team that defies this society’s beliefs. Eduardo was a victim of this society’s puppet pulls on Feb 23. Hleb and Cesc are constantly on the agenda as well. But the more Arsenal win in the face of such ugliness, the more the society’s beliefs will be challenged, until one day this society will be crushed. I can only hope!
An element that was lost in the MASSIVE back and forth between Andez and Stag above is a point I tried to make about diving, or more specifically, faking injury and English Football Culture.
Personally, I hate it (faking injury) but I see why players do it. It’s done to say to the referee “Hey, Call something–my opponent is trying to hurt me.” The “flow of the game” referee does nothing, and it’s the worst of both worlds.
Simulation is a yellow card offense (to the best of my knowledge, please correct me if I’m wrong) and referees could eradicate it very quickly if they punished it. The flip side is that the escalation of real violence would be something that would destroy the game for most of us (Stag might like it, or at least accept it).
Referees have too much power to determine match results because they need more tools. Dangerous tackles should get yellow and red cards, but maybe simulation should be a “half-yellow.” A good ref could call a foul, give a warning, “Hey,the next simulation gets a card,” spoken in English, even if the player, of course, can’t understand him… ;-)
I’m speaking facetiously here, but the game needs to evolve. Penalties should fit the crime. Longer suspensions for crippling injuries, of course, but smaller penalties so that referees can enforce the more appealing elements (disdain for simulation, being one of them) of the English culture.
I’d say the DIVING is worse for the game than hard-tackling ever was.
Eboue can play well, like he did against Stoke, and its all undone with one of his trademark DIVES near the box.
At that point, I don’t want him on the pitch, on our team, or in our league.
For me, it ruins the game… as much as horror tackles make you not want to watch the matches either.
Disagree again.
while diving and cheating are something nobody want to see (listen up, Steven “HONEST” Gerrard, Wayne “HONEST” Rooney. I too don’t want players like that in the league)…. diving and cheating will never BREAK a player’s leg.
Diving is bad. But don’t tell me it’s worse than a leg breaking tackle.
HARD TACKLING… not leg breaking?!
You can play hard physical football, like Keane and Vieira did, and not injure people.
I don’t want to see the physical aspect taken out of football. What would the point be? we could watch dancing.
Diving = cheating
I’d rather see a physical defensive style of play, 7 days a week, ahead of watching Eboue and many others dive around the pitch, like they’ve been SHOT… when they often were not even touched.
But didn’t Keane purposely break someone’s leg? I recall that he did.
what?
who and when?
and how exactly do you prove that?
Did he say, yeah, I was trying to break his leg?
I don’t recall this one, sorry.
But Cantona did karate kick a fan once.
Alright, he didn’;t say he tried to break his leg, but in his autobiography he said he tried to hurt him and after the game basically said “fuck that guy.”
This just in – Arsenal DID NOT win the profit league this year. Actually based on the figures they haven’t been in the running for a while:
1 Real Madrid 401.4
2 Barcelona 365.9
3 Manchester United 327.0
4 Bayern Munich 289.5
5 Arsenal 263.0
6 Chelsea 242.3
7 Liverpool 217.0
8 Juventus 203.2
9 Internazionale 196.5
10 Milan 196.5
Sorry since so much is made of the profit league around I thought I’d publish the standings.
While I’m at it, I’ll answer for Stag…
Anyone can HIDE profits, have you ever talked to an accountant!!!!
(We do it with our massive debts, of course.)
LOL!!!!!
ALSO, if this list is true, then we’ll SURELY be losing Cesc in the Summer to Barca, not to mention ANY of our other players who play decently between now and then (LIKE AT THE WORLD CUP!!!!!)
And for those of you who think ‘Pool and United are gonna get relegated or otherwise collapse….
OMFG ROFLMAO!!!!!
WTF ARE YOU THINKING…
And thank you for proving all my points…as my fingers are sore from having to tell Andez what’s, what… ;-)
So, ummm, yeah…
if United are going to go bankrupt, and Liverpool are going to go bankrupt…
how exactly are they on this list?
This just emphasizes for you folks that see their demise, that its not close to happening.
But enjoy that fantasy.
Are you sure this is profit? I think it is revenue.
Absolutely not profit DAG. That figure is revenue (money generated by match day receipts, TV rights, merchandising, etc).
Have not seen the full 2009 numbers yet, but Arsenal was the most profitable last financial year from a before tax aspect.
Sorry that is right this is the REVENUE league not the profit league.
Stag will be happy to know we can still win that. ;-)
can still win it?
its a LOCK.
GUARANTEED!
and whatever we do on the pitch, that’s just gravy, WINNING the PROFIT LEAGUE, is what is important.
Matches are short term, why discuss.
A season, short term, not important.
PROFIT is the goal.
You could always participate in the profits through the purchase of shares for yourself…
http://www.plusmarketsgroup.com/details.shtml?ISIN=GB0030895238/GBX/PLUS-exn
Errr, well maybe not at that price. How about some Class B shares for us mortals! :) Or, should we pool our money and start an American Supporter’s Group so we can be represented?!?
represented, maybe…
but when you ask Mr.Wenger a question, he will be offended that an American could possibly question anything he does.
idiots.
;)
Freak horrid accidents will happen in all sport yet this is not in that category, so it’s not acceptable. Our problem is mitigating against it – if you wait for referee’s you’re allowing our boys to get nobbled periodically in the meantime.
Am I the only Arsenal supporter that likes to see even a 36 year old big guy walk out on the pitch with our young team? We need to redress the intimidation balance.
Don’t take what I’m saying to an extreme – I’m not saying we nobble others. But I am saying this is a bit more grey than our theories make out. If you have played contact sport you will know that everyone marks out their turf. It is physical. Think Adams, Keown, Bould, Dixon, Parlour, Vieira. And if you have a reputation for being soft even the teams that normally play relatively cleanly will be more physical against you. We need to take care of ourselves. We need to get rid of the reputation of being a fancy soft touch team that whinge every time we get beaten.
It’s not all bad, I think guys like Verme, Gallas, Sagna, Clichy, Song, Diaby and even now Fabregas are tough enough for the rigours of the EPL – yet we need a bit of fire in the belly. If we’re getting kicked and fouled early in a game we need to respond before it becomes a pattern that escalates and results in a late full-blooded nasty challenge that may well in part be accidental due to it being from a tiring player. If you honestly think everything on a football pitch is regulated by a referee then your dreaming.
The team is maturing and that means several things vis a vis the physicality with the “lesser” teams and the English Football Culture at large.
Experienced or established players know, in an instinctual way, that they MUST stay healthy. They cannot help their team, nor further their own career, by letting themselves get hurt. This season’s two worst tackles were Saturday’s on a 19 year old and Liam Ridgewell on (20 year old) Theo Walcott in the B’ham City match. These young players are trying to impress in a way that a player in their later twenties, especially if they are established at club and National level do not. Letting an overzealous nut-job (Ridgewell or Shawcross, for example) get the first touch on a 50-50 is no big deal for them–they realize that self-preservation dictates that they play for the 2nd touch…
IMO Wenger went too far in the direction of youth, perhaps blinded by hubris and the experience of finding such an excellent AND mature player in Fabregas. I agree that the lack of mature, protective players (“enforcers”) exposed the team to a physicality it was naive to believe would not be a problem.
Another problem with injuries is that they create more injuries. A player like Van Persie, who I thought was a shoo-in for a major World Cup role with the Dutch National team still feels he has to PROVE himself, likely because of low goal totals, etc. due to his injuries. He should have strolled through that friendly vs Italy in November, but instead he wanted (maybe too much) to make a lasting impression on Van Basten. Theo’s efforts to impress Capello (and AW) may have played a substantial role in his series of injuries.
Likewise, as I said above, Ramsey was playing far more daringly (on Saturday) than we’ve seen Denilson play, and I think we would all have been talking about a reversal of the pecking order. He paid the price and, IF he plays again, I bet he’ll play differently.
Maturity also means adjusting to the way a game is being called. If every niggle gets a whistle, play it clean, if (as is far more common) the referee “let’s the game flow” (i.e, is too gutless to control the match)….Well, let’s just say there are ways to take advantage of that, that do not endanger anyone. Cynical though it may seem, our players need to be thinking about this issue and using it to our benefit.
Finally, this tragedy, perhaps presents a real opportunity for us. Leadership and resilience were shown in the aftermath AND we have a run-in against teams we can beat. Referees will be (or should be) under greater scrutiny to control our matches, and the specter of the injury will (or should) loom large. It’s also a great opportunity for Arsene to take a moderate approach with his comments, acknowledging that upcoming matches will be physical but trusting that referees will do their job. Likewise, praise must be handed out evenly if teams beat us or referees call games well. The microscope will be on him more than ever and it’s time for the manager to do better.
Pardon the long post….
Wow, that’s a long post!
Hey, here’s only one FACT here Mr. No-Nonsense.
Ramsey has broken a leg, and may or may not be able to ever play football again.
So if any of my comments above have offended your beloved Man U, Chelsea, Stoke or whoever. I’m sorry.
But you can say whatever u wanna say, I will quote Wenger here “it’s UNACCEPTABLE”. Period.
the horror tackle is awful.
it is not acceptable in any sport to maim your opponent.
that is not being debated.
only that it is up to the league(s) to actually suspend the player and act to stop it.
you don’t offend me, but the idea that the most popular league in the world has only one team playing “proper” football is utter crap!
why should teams change what they do to try and emulate a team that has won SHIT in the past 5 seasons?
don’t shit this shit that Stag.
Who knows? We may go on to win the league this season, and you may have to take all your shit back.
Stag, you win the prize for the longest post ever! :-)
Interesting one liner from US Gunner… “eventually there will be a European Super League and teams like Stoke will forever be relegated.”
Now that is a seriously interesting scenario that hasn’t been explored. The question is whether there will ever be the will to allow the truly big clubs to break away from their national leagues.
I think the English game has improved over the years. I see even the lower teams integrating passing moves into their natural style that would never ever have been seen in the EPL 20-25 years ago. Although in saying that there does appear to be a mini-resurgence almost a revival of this banal bonehead approach popularised by Sam Allardyce particularly by teams in the lower third of the league and those who get promoted. It has become the ‘accepted way’ to try and survive and neutralise more talented teams. This in itself is not new as Stag says, but the level of ‘acceptance’ and the pervasive defence of the approach by the media is both fascinating and chilling.
Yet when all the talking is done, any team that aspires to success has to cope with its environment. As do we. We’re not as yet in a Euro league where talent and money fuse together. I must say again though, I am concerned as to the impact this will have on Cesc. How many team mates have to be nobbled before he says – “this is crap” and walks away.
yes kiwi. I think sooner or later teams will all transformed to passing sides.
Cos when the overall quality of the players in the Premiership have improved from 20 years ago, meaning that – once you lose the ball, it will be harder for you to get it back, if you still insist on playing long ball.
So one day, I believe everyone will realize what Alex Ferguson had come to term after their defeat to Barcelona in the early 90s – POSSESSION is the key.
If we look at EPL clubs’ fortune in Europe, while the top sides like big 4 have done well in CL, the rest of the clubs did not do as well in UEFA Cup.
And back in the 70/80s, English clubs been winning the 3 European competitions for fun.
I think it just goes and show that the game has changed. No longer the European oppositions fear the long ball game like the yesteryears.
Either you evolve, or extinct.
possession is the key?
really?
Do you think Chelsea believe possession is the key when they play Arsenal?
How many times in a row do they have to beat us before we realize, possession means fuck all in football.
GOALS are the key.
;)
In the early 90s, Man U got trashed in a European cup final by Johan Cruff’s Barcelona “Dream Team”.
It’s a turning point to Man U’s fortune. As Alex Ferguson admitted afterall, they simply couldn’t play the usual way as they did in the league.
Cos when playing against superior European oppositions, once you lose the ball, it will take you 5 minutes to get it back (Fergie’s words, not mine).
Thereafter, Man Utd changed their approach in their Europe campaign. And paying more attention on keeping the ball.
Possession means fuck all? Tell that to Ferguson.
If you don’t have the BALL, you can’t SCORE. hey, i thought every man knows that. just ask john terry.
I get it …
EVERYTHING Arsenal do, is the right way… everybody else is wrong.
Wenger knows, and other teams don’t play football properly… he is trying to advance the English game, single-handedly.
We haven’t won a damned thing since 2005, but its not Arsenal or Wenger’s fault… there are just too many damned poor teams in the
league, and they are playing a shitty style… anti-football.
The league is the MOST watched in the world, by far… and English teams have easily had the most success in the Champions League, in recent years… but how is that possible, with the culture of the English game being so stone-age? and… only Arsenal playing “proper football” and a good style of play?
The lower teams… shouldn’t dare spend money to improve their team… as if they do, if they try to compete with better players, managers, facilities, training… they risk doing a Leeds & Pompey.
So what they SHOULD do, is just play good passing football with medicore talent, and accept that they are lucky to be in the EPL.
Do not DARE to play hard, aggresive physical football, as a way to compensate for not having the money or talent of the bigger teams.
I just heard there are only 4 teams people support in England… I am not quite sure who is showing up at all the other matches… every single week… as I believe England have among Europe’s highest attendence every year…
Don’t watch a match on TV if it doesn’t involve a big team, because it can’t possibly be worth watching the 90 minutes… it either involves long-balls, set-pieces, and grinding out goals… not pretty multiple passes that are the essence of the game.
Let’s look at the league and try and figure out why everyone doesn’t
support Arsenal… I mean, everyone else is just pretenders.
Manchester United – hate them, because they win, and are so in debt, that it their trophies don’t matter, its mortgaging their future.
Chelsea – they bought all their titles, one man team, as they can’t win without Drogba on the pitch, when Roman gets tired of the toy, its over!
Liverpool – haven’t won league title in 20 years, but the CL they have.
hate them because they are scousers, play the long-ball, hooferpool, rely on 2 or 3 players, and they will fold in a few years, with the crushing debt…
Man City – they play a nice style… passing, scoring… but they are trying to buy their way into the big group… can’t do that, its against the rules, and when the money goes, they will fold.
Aston Villa – have to hate them, they don’t play proper football, according to the god of football, Arsene Wenger. They play long balls.
How dare they?
Tottenham – They’ve spent more money that we have… and won shit… though they have been to Wembley and won a Carling Cup, and we’ve won?? in that span? (and if the Carling Cup doesn’t matter, why has United just won two in a row, and before that Chelsea won it?)
They are to be laughed at and hated, because they are our RIVALS… but
what do they really do wrong? bad style? players to hate? Nope, not really…
Everyone else?
Do they matter? Everton?
They don’t play an open style… are on the physical side, don’t really pass the ball beautifully… hell, how good they be if Donovan’s been one of their better players?
The rest of them just make up the schedule for the top teams.
They are there as cannon fodder according to most on here…
ANTI-FOOTBALL!
Say it loud, it makes it true.
Don’t DARE spend money to try and improve, you’ll collapse.
Don’t DARE play defensive and try to nick a point off the big teams.
Don’t DARE play physical and try to intimidate the pretty stars on the big teams.
Throw-Ins?
That’s football? That counts? You can have a guy throw a ball in like that and in counts the same as good passes?
The pitches aren’t well kept, its anti-football.
The teams waste time to try and shorten the game, its anti-football.
The managers play a style that doesn’t allow Arsenal to pass freely, its anti-football.
They often put 9 players behind the ball and park the bus, its anti-football.
If we lose or draw, its almost always the other teams fault, its anti-football, or they were lucky, or their tactics aren’t true to the game, or they’ve spent so much money that it doesn’t really count, or they have massive debt, so it doesn’t really count.
INSANITY. All of it.
I love football.
Different styles, different leagues, different divisions.
International football, is great… country v country… great passion.
I’ve been to Division One games in the UK, and guess what, fans show up and love their teams. The stadiums are unique, quaint, and quintessentially English.
I watch Italian, French, Spain and Germany.
I have favorite teams in all of them… usually MINNOWS.
I have teams I like in the lower English divisions.
There is NOT one style of play that is CORRECT.
There is NOT one way to do things.
There is no such thing as ANTI-FOOTBALL… that is OPINION, as to folks thinking a defensive style is not football, or that Arsenal’s style is the RIGHT one, and stopping Arsenal from playing it is WRONG.
It is about COMPETITION.
That is what makes the sport, or ANY sport… great.
The US v Canada Men’s Gold Medal game in Ice Hockey…
passion, competitive, … FANTASTIC.
That is what makes the English Leagues special… its why I traveled
(and still do) at great length and great cost to experience it in
person… if everyone played the same way… who’d f’n watch it?
I know this is Arsenal, and for most folks, we can do no wrong…
but the day that there is a Euro-League, and/or there are not minnows
doing anything they can to compete and defeat or upset the “big teams”… I’ll stop watching and find something else to do.
Is the game perfect? No. Never has been.
Injuries are part of the game, so are contrasting styles.
Until the FA gets serious, and actually punishes a player for
NUMEROUS games… 10 or 20… for reckless play, not much will change
in terms of dangerous play.
Until there is some sort of way to level the field financially…
a soft cap of some sort, then the “have-nots” have to try and compete
by any means necessary… defense, physical play, home field advantages.
Eventually there will be a European Super League and teams like Stoke will forever be relegated.
Can’t believe you are defending teams that has just potentially ended one of our players’ career.
Anyway, if you wanna know why EPL is the most popular, I don’t know exactly. But I bet there must be quite a few factors than just say contrast in style.
Simple question – how many people in the world are supporting any team outside of top 4?
If there’s a game Stoke Vs Bolton on TV, would u tune in? Even if u do, can you last a full 90 minutes watching the ball traveling in the air? And watching players taking 3 or 4 touches to just get a ball under control?
Anyway, back to your question, here’s my opinions:
(1) Tradition. Cos English game has been popular for a long time, not just recently. People are familiar with the players of EPL than Series A or La Liga.
(2) Up Tempo Game. Because teams tend to play up tempo, end to end stuff, so it’s exciting to watch.
(3) Atmosphere of the Stadium. Even watching on TV, you can hear the nosie of the crowd. You can see the excitment of the fans. Unlike Series A, there’s a running track that seperated the crowd from the pitch. And for fans who watch the game on TV, you do not feel the atmosphere of the game.
(4) Fans. English fans are passionate. And they always encourage their side to go forward, to attack. And everybody, let’s face it, LOVES attacking game. No matter how they say to others.
As for your question how I expect the lowly side to compete? I think the answer I already posted on my previous post. Just go watch La Liga. None of them play long ball game. Even the bottom teams. So if it works in Spain, why not in England?
Or a more simple answer – just get the players to PASS the damn ball.
I think Burnley did well enough playing this way, until their manager got nicked away by Bolton. Didn’t they beat Man Utd? And I think they beat us last season as well playing this way. And their team aren’t exactly field with superstars.
A lowly league side Doncaster Rovers played the PASSING GAME to promotion.
So it proved that teams can PASS the ball and get result.
Stag, go watch La Liga. You would notice even the bottom table teams play the PASSING game.
Spain national team being so strong, and so DEEP in talent is not without a reason. They got some tremendous talents everywhere, not just with Real and Barca. Ex. Munian with Bibao, Santi Cozorla with Villarreal, Jesus with Sevilla to name just a few.
Anti football is just a “nice term” to describe the way Stoke, Bolton the likes’ playing style. You could call them “shitty football”, “rubbish football”, or “rugby”. Whatever u like. It does not change a thing.
And if we call the over-aggressive approach to the game “tactic” would be an insult to all the master tacticans of the game at the past. Chopping an opposition player’s legs to pieces is not called “tactic”. Any team could play this way. Even Real Madrid, as long as their coach ask them to.
Though I too can understand where the lowely team managers coming from by playing the game this way, cos they don’t know anything better. Anyone still wonders why there’s no top notch English managers come along since…… the late Bobby Robson perhaps.
Everything happens for a reason. If England as a footballing nation feel that’s fine. Then okay, that’s fine. But if they keep doing things this way, I bet sooner or later even U.S. would become a stronger force than them. Cos they are STANDING STILL as a football nation. While everyone else keep progressing. If you look at the way Japan and Korea playing the game, they too are playing the passing game. And that’s in Asia.
Let’s face it, the Premiership has two leagues in it. The bottom half made up by teams which play stone-age football.
The English game better pray Stoke City never qualify for Europe. Imagine Stoke City playing against AC Milan in UEFA Cup, Rroy Delap taking his time to get a towel wiping the ball dry before launching a long throw…. it would have made English game the laughing stock in the eyes of the European oppositions.
Andez, how the hell do you expect the bottom half teams to compete with the big 6?
Seriously?
What the hell are they supposed to do in order to compete?
You don’t want them to spend any money, because it will be as LEEDS situation or Pompey.
You don’t want them to play physical, agressive, defensive style football…
Why not just go with the EURO SUPER LEAGUE and be done with it?
You like Arsenal and its style. That is just wonderful. That doesn’t make it the BEST football. It is OPINION.
When did the last Spanish team win anything besides Real Madrid or Barcelona?
If I were a lower team in that league, I’d be looking to slow down those two teams any way I could.
Letting them win and play nice over and over and over… is LOSER mentality.
There is a reason the ENGLISH PREM is the most POPULAR LEAGUE IN THE WORLD.
It is watched all over the world, because there is a contrast in styles, and the matches are for the most part competitive.
THIS YEAR ESPECIALLY.
So if the league and its “tactics” are so stone-age, why do people watch it?
If I ever meet a Stoke/Birmingham/Bolton/etc fan/player/staff/any other who endorses their style of play, I would like to say –
I understand why you play so shit; if I didn’t have any intelligence or skill, I would probably do the same.
Nipuna…
While obviously, I do not endorse the tackle of Shawcross, and horror tackles and out of control play…
I really don’t understand what some people would expect or like the lower teams in the league to do, in terms of how they play football.
Sure, it would be nice if everyone played Arsenal’s way… nobody gets tackled or dirty, and the ball gets passed all over the pitch in a lovely mode…
But when there are 5 or 6 teams with serious money, to buy the best players, and ANY youngster that comes thru a team like Stoke/Birmingham/Bolton… and they get bought up by Chelsea/Arsenal/United…
How exactly are the teams in the lower or middle part of the table supposed to compete?
I have heard this shit about “ANTI-FOOTBALL”…
what a load of non-sense.
HOW would you compete against Arsenal, if you can’t compete finanically, you can’t buy players like they do, and when you do develop a star (think Rooney at Everton)… he gets bought because he wants to go, and the smaller team can’t afford NOT to sell the player.
So, they have to play a style that allows them to compete.
NO, not saying horror tackles to level the field…
but physical play is part of the game, and the English game…
slowing the superior team down, time wasting (happens by EVERY team in the league), fouling when necessary to slow down the other teams best players…
This is called tactics… and smart ones if you are Bolton and you are playing United.
I know it would be nice of the other teams to just let Arsenal and United, etc… RUN WILD all over the pitch, and score at will… but when that happens, I’ll stop watching, as it won’t be competitive football.
WHEN there is some sort of salary cap imposed on football, so teams aren’t allowed to spend 10 times what other teams can afford to spend… then you can talk about why one team plays a certain style of play versus another style of play.
There has always been clashes in style in all sports.
PHYSICAL-DEFENSE oriented teams sometimes are the best.
PRETTY OFFENSE sometimes overcomes it.
NHL
Do you prefer the off-side trap of the NJ Devils, or Gretzky’s Oilers?
NBA
Do you prefer the bad-boy Detroit Pistons, or the Lakers Showtime?
NFL
Do you like the Baltimore Ravens killer Defense and winning with Dilfer as a quarterback, or Manning and the Colts throwing the ball all over the field.
I suppose you don’t think the Pistons should have been allowed to win, the Ravens should have been allowed to win, and the Devils should have been allowed to win.
They all won UGLY, with bruising defense, and all of them clutched, grabbed, held, fouled, roughed up, and bruised their way to titles.
Beauty, is in the eye of the beholder, and its easy for Arsenal (or United or Chelsea, etc)… to say… oh, you teams play a shitty style…
even the financial aspect of it, and then it will come down to talent evaluation, management, and the ability to execute a plan or produce on the field.
just a slightly different view…
as I don’t look at some of the POOR teams as having ANY option if they want to survive.
It is two days since that horrific incident, and after reading articles like this (http://blogs.soccernet.com/stokecity/archives/2010/03/englands_ryan_shawcross_can_ho_1.php) I have realized that NOTHING is going to change.
Sad but true.
Stan Collymore is a 14-year-old trapped in a 40-year-old’s body.
The stuff he wrote resembles to the posts from those famous WUMs (wind up machines) on BBC 606. And those usually were written by kids.
You know how it likes with kids, teenagers, they would do anything just try to draw attention. Cos they are not secured of themselves. As everyone would have gone through at that stage of their life.
To most normal human being, when they turn 40, they would look back what they had done at 14 and have a laugh of it – how silly we used to be.
In the case of “Stan the Kid”, when he turns 80th, he would probably look back at what he did and talked back in his 40s and realizes how stupid he used to be.
No, idiots like Stan will behave worse than kids when they are 80.
lol!
funny enough, of all the posts I read everywhere, I find that DannyT has written the best piece.
He pointed out a simple fact – the one major reasons many English footballers are called committed, physical aggressive players is simple because… technically, they are not good enough.
A point I made before, a great defender never needs to dive in for a tackle. For the top class defender, diving in tackle is always to be used as the last resort. Because you take the risk of losing your position when you do that.
Now imagine the scenario that IF FA does instruct the refs to take a more strict approach on “aggressive tackling”, what would happen?
(1) IMO, it will improve the defenders’ quality. Cos now they must make sure they have to time their tackle right. Instead of just jumping in blindly and count on the fact the ref won’t be punishing them anyway.
That leads to….
(2) Clubs will be buying even more foreigners. Let’s face it, if you look at many English defenders outside of the big 4, most of them gets to call themselves “footballers” simply because they are strong, and so-called physically aggressive. Should the rule change, they will lose their jobs.
Yet on the other hand….
(3) The younger generation of English defenders will be the one who benefited in a long run. As now clubs will focus on developing the technical side of their game instead of just being big, strong, tough, aggressive.
If you look at the panic England national team is having now – that they are in dangerous of going to South Africa without a left back…. how pathetic can it be?
England is supposed to be one of the football super power in Europe. They are not Malta, not Cyprus. With a low population.
A football power like England find themselves struggling to pick a decent left back just because Cashley Gold is out. You clearly got some serious problem there.
But instead of looking into the REAL PROBLEM, the debates have been surrounded on whether Wayne Bridge should cast his personal issue with Terry aside and plays for England.
Come on, anyone even bothers to think of WHY England do not have more quality left backs?
As far as I’m concerned, as long as the kids kept being taught to be tough, hard, aggressive, England will never produce a Paolo Maldini.
Very few sane thoughts being made amidst all the noise. This is one.
“When I was growing up a 50/50 tackle was one where both players literally kicked the ball at the same time. It was usually a crunching tackle and one or both players could easily get injured, but usually it would be a twisted ankle.
Arriving after the ball has been played by the other player and instead kicking the player is not a 50/50 tackle. It is a late tackle. Any late tackle could be a sending off if it is bad enough. Anyone who thinks a late tackle that breaks a leg doesn’t deserve a red card doesn’t love football, they love violence.
There is no need for intent in football just like there is no need for intent with assault in Law. Recklessness is enough to get punished in both cases, and rightly so. Otherwise people could claim recklessness as a defence to all sorts of assaults. Again, if you want it that way, then you love violence not football.”
http://www.football365.com/mailbox/story/0,17033,8744_5997245,00.html
I saw that also…very reasonable…
A couple of additional thoughts on “the incident”…
Before the injury Ramsey was having a hell of a game and he was cementing his spot in MF, for the remainder of the season, ahead of Denilson. I had noticed that he was really going for it, and a combination of touches ending in a back-heel maybe 10 or 15 mins before the injury, just as he was getting sandwiched by two Stoke players, made me really take notice. Perhaps if he had been playing a bit more “conservatively” (like I think Denilson does) he might be walking today. But maybe we wouldn’t have won the match…Trade offs, I guess.
Players need to police themselves (morally) when it comes to hurting others. Shawcross, after what he had done to Jeffers and Adebayor, obviously “got over” whatever tears he cried in those events and failed to police himself on this, his third “strike.”
But overall the culture must shoulder the blame…In the US people still drink and drive, but they no longer say “Sorry I killed your son (daughter, whatever) and drive again in a year. Nor do we go and kill their son (daughter, whatever). An “Eye for an Eye” is not right, nor is a hand(ball) for a leg (and three games out and an England call-up) correct. The culture can only change, over time, by people taking a stand and demanding (somehow) for the institutions and penalties to be altered.
To continue my rant/diatribe….
The top level of English Football has been the best in the world in recent years and one big reason (IMO) is Arsenal. Of course, we are not alone in bringing in superior (often foreign, often dark-skinned) talent and playing better looking, more entertaining and winning football, but we are a big part of it AND we should be proud. In general Arsenal (and the other top teams) have done this IN SPITE of, rather than BECAUSE of, the general English Football culture.
That’s not to say that English Football Culture is all bad. Diving for penalties/fouls and the attendant writhing on the pitch in false agony IS repulsive and detracts from the game. The English game IS played at a faster pace, with greater flow, and with less of this nonsense than that of many other leagues. As such it is more attractive to American audiences and thus is has come to dominate the lucrative English speaking television market.
Because of this, even Champions League officiating has gone more toward an “English style” and we are treated to spectacles like our match in Porto, where the referee allowed us to be pummeled in order to keep the match moving.
In this way, obviously, it’s not all good, and again we’ve seen the ugly side. Last night, two years ago with the Eduardo injury, and for many years with our younger squad bruised and battered. What do we do? Do we fight back and adopt their methods? I say no.
Things shouldn’t be this way, and, although people may scoff, and although we will sacrifice points and trophies and the like in the short-term, (as we’ve been doing), I say No (again). What we must do is continue to do what we’re doing, tell England and the world that it is unacceptable, attempt (with our “excessive profits”) to bring in as many talented footballers as we can and play the game to our superior standards. It may not work out for us and we may not “win” anything, but, in my opinion, Arsenal are on the correct side of history (as they say).
Some may miss the Hooligans and the “Firms” and the crushes on the terraces (and maybe even the monkey chants when black players took the pitch?) and they may lament the “antiseptic” culture at our new stadium, but those former things are the past, and cultures like ours are the future. And, of course, that is not to mention the different culture on the pitch, one that prizes skill and teamwork and a certain “beauty” or “quality” above winning “at any cost.” In my opinion, (and what the hell do I know) the game WILL move in our direction and we will eventually see another level of competition among the top clubs in Europe (and elsewhere), that will include refereeing that protects the best players, even if it means the game doesn’t “flow” quite as well or the occasional upset of “the world’s best team” by “committed” but under-skilled, semi-professional assemblages. People worldwide want to see the game played at the highest level, and that is how it should be.
David and Goliath stories are all well and good, but it’s also ancient history. Aaron Ramsey is not a Philistine and Ryan Shawcross is not a little shepherd boy getting lucky with a small stone flung from his sling.
Will Ramsey play again? I hope so. Will Arsenal win the league (in Ramsey’s honor)? Again I hope so, as that would be the correct ending to this story and it would be a great step forward for the English game. Is there a huge slice of English football fans who want to see Arsenal lose, if not physically battered? (And do some actually take pleasure in seeing Aaron’s foot hanging there?) Yes. Is that alright? No it isn’t.
End of Rant…(go on, rip me a new one…I can take it.)
English football probably excels in the CL BECAUSE OF THE PHYSICAL PLAY!
and its hardly because of anything Arsenal do.
When it gets down to the nuts and bolts of the CL in the last few years, our teams are better, stronger physically, and can impose themselves on weaker opponents.
You’d have to be a “special” team, like Barcelona…
to beat EPL teams consistently.
just my take on it.
I don’t agree.
English clubs have been playing physical for decades but only in the last 3-4 years have they dominated the CL.
I think it is because EPL has got richer and therefore they have been able to attract more and more stars to play.
In the mid 90s, the Italians were on top, then came the Spanish and now it is the English. This too shall pass. But the physical nature of the English game won’t change.
PS: Remember when Arsenal were a strong physical team and winning the league and FA Cup, we were getting royally beaten up in the CL.
A fair point Nipuna,
but Italy is hardly non-contact…
they play a more defensive style, and there is most definitely physical play.
They know how to STOP high octane offense.
Very nice article from Walter at Untold Arsenal.
http://blog.emiratesstadium.info/2010/03/why-stoke-type-thuggery-is-not-allowed-in-spain-and-italy/
“Even in Germany they have an unwritten rule that when a players gets a red card in the Bundesliga and they have an international game they don’t call him up to let the players know they do not tolerate it and to give the player a punishment for bringing disgrace to the German football.
I can only with great sadness say that the moral standards in Germany are higher than in England. And I feel very sorry to say this because I really love England and the English people.”
I have been seeing the Bundesliga quite regularly this year and I have got to say that their standard of refereeing is light years ahead of England. They do not tolerate dissent and you will never see a “Rooney spitting all kinds of abuse” incident go unpunished.
I am very much in agreement with this and I think we are arriving at the crux of the problem: the culture of English football.
Last night I watched a little “Premier League Review” (MOTD) and I most certainly turned it off after the two lead games (Bridgegate–Chelsea vs City–and then our match). I then watched 45 mins of a replay of Bayern-Hamburg and it was FAR better (in a variety of ways) than watching the highlights of the remainder of the English League.
Germany has seen intolerance and violence at a level that undermines the very notion of “civilization.” And, of course, it (sadly) continues all over the world. They are doing the correct thing (IMO) to attempt to stamp-out racism, hate-speech and the rest, so that “it never happens again.”
Football, with its various “cultures” and its deep tribalism which allows some to feel safe (and happy) cursing Aaron Ramsey (or Mark Davies) as they’re stretched off home pitches, mirrors the larger culture. And England (and some Arsenal fans) should be ashamed.
Our team, Arsenal, play in the English league and we must cope with this. However, I for one, am deeply attracted to the (present) team (and manager) because of what I perceive to be our desire to transcend the worst elements of English football culture and play a superior game. I, for one, (and maybe, one only…) do NOT think we should attempt to sink to the level of the culture and get various ‘ard men, and stick it up the teams that try to do us, etc.,
I’m sure I will be lambasted for my stance or at least dismissed as the noob-tard (that I probably am) but I find the injuries and the attendant injustice I have seen to be too much. I agree with AW that it is “unacceptable,” at a moral level, and I wonder how much more I can take.
LOL.
Steve, if you want to watch dancing…
;)
Football is a contact sport, and it is physical.
I would not watch it if it was 9-7 scores, where there was no physical play, and the best players couldn’t be touched without the whistle blowing!
Just my opinion.
and we were doing just fine when we had a few players in the line-up, that were willing to stand up for their team-mates.
I agree Collymore is a simpleton.
Yet he echo’s a disturbing truth. His strong public dislike for Wenger (and Arsenal?) has a basis no matter how ridiculous it may appear to us. Indeed, as Nipuna said in the last thread, he isn’t alone, and Arsene’s increasingly pious attitude and comments attract that strong dislike.
“So what” we might ask? “Who cares, it’s Collymore that has the problem”!
Rational to me and you, yet I fear that the Collymore’s are the majority, they reflect the general opinion not us. That means the louder we scream of the grotesque foul the louder they hear us as soft whingers. We’re swimming against the tide and in a sense Collymore speaks from a position of strength when he says if you don’t like it go elsewhere. We are after all criticising the English game (as deserving as that may appear to us).
Arthur was right in saying that this is complex – there are layers of complexity in all of this and in the English perceptions of the game and of Arsenal and Wenger. Whilst on the one hand many ‘neutrals’ applaud Arsenal and Wenger for the quality of our passing game they are just as quick to switch and lambast and detest him and us for our moralising and self-righteous attitude on all things football. From financial doping to being judge and jury on what is and isn’t ‘good football’. Why would O’Neill and Villa like Wenger and us? When we lose or draw we are often graceless – it comes around. We play in the English league and we need friends if we are to influence things to our advantage.
You are correct, and AW could do better, esp after losses and critiquing teams that play a different style…of football. IMO he IS trying to move the game forward and appearing a sore loser does himself AND the game a disservice. When fans/supporters however, advocate that we employ a similar “win-at-all-costs” philosophy, that’s where I must differ (see below).
All change is incremental and AW (being human as he is) is at his worst when he takes righteous stands about the game that alienate would-be (neutral) converts. Personally I think he needs to come down more harshly when his players fail, as in the Gallas-Mark Davies incident–as do we, his supporters (with our tiny voices….)
How is he trying to “move the game forward”?
I guess that would mean, everybody should emulate our style of play? because it is superior?
Though, since we haven’t won anything since 2005, why the heck would anyone want to do what we do?
The reality is, Wenger is a poor loser.
So is Fergie, Rafa, O’Neill, Moyes, Ancelotti, Mancini – they all are – what’s your point?
I like the way DannyT’s put the whole thing- http://arsenaltruth.squarespace.com/
On the need for an enforcer, I agree that we need one, and fast.
Waiting for FA to change rules and for referees to actually implement it, I think the sun will rise in the west before that happens.
I’ll take a look at a different angle to this ugly situation,
to mention a point I have made in the past… about PLAYERS, and
their “alleged” greed in how much they make, or why they leave for
money, etc…
One crazy jack-ass, coming in hard, out of control, and…
your career can be all but over…
I hope and pray Ramsey comes back from this horrific injury.
He is young, and can hopefully heal like younger people sometimes do…
extraordinarily well…
But you MAKE it while you can in professional sports…
because in the blink of an eye, one idiot can end or ruin your
career…
——————
In regard to the brutality and toughness issue?
ARSENAL have needed to address the issue of not having anyone
in the line-up willing or able to physically challenge an opponent,
or impose his will on the game.
Roy Keane.
Patrick Vieira.
These are two BIG time guys that did it, and were great players to boot.
But there are more than a few players out there, who do the dirty work,
(no pun intended)… in the trenches… that doesn’t show up on a scoresheet.
Until we do, why wouldn’t the overly physical play against our players
continue? What are we going to do about it? NOTHING.
What are the refs going to do about it…?? NOT MUCH.
If we are waiting around until Rooney or Gerrard break a leg on
an idiotic tackle… then we might as well just wait for United and Liverpool to fold.
“If we are waiting around until Rooney or Gerrard break a leg on
an idiotic tackle… then we might as well just wait for United and Liverpool to fold.”
That statement rings so true, it is scary.
My writing pales in comparison to this article by Martin Samuel at the Daily Mail. By far it is the best summarization of everything Gooners have said about the injuries and the English approach to it:
http://bit.ly/ak2uLp
Conversely if you go to the Mirror that TWAT Stan Collymore says that if Arsene can’t stand the English game as it’s played he should go to Serie A or La Liga.
Stan’s comments are retarded at best.
In another article, he says Leeds and Newcastle should be reinstated to the EPL because they are a BIG team.
He stands for everything Arsenal are trying to change. No wonder his comments are anti Arsenal.