Arsene Wenger: The Second Coming of Herbert Chapman?
Do you believe?
Well with the “interlull” firmly upon us and just coming off the Arsene love-fest from last week, it’s time to take a look at our longest serving manager and see how he stacks up against the man who guided the club through one of its best era’s of Football.
In 1925 Arsenal had just sacked manager Leslie Knighton and chairman Sir Henry Norris was looking for a replacement. Norris placed an adver in the Athletic news looking for a new manager:
“Whose sole ability to build up a good side depends on the payment of heavy and exhorbitant [sic] transfer fees need not apply.”
Arsenal were not an attractive side to go to that year as they had been fighting off relegationa and with the restriction on transfer fees it was unlikely that top talent would take the job. Meanwhile Huddersfiled Town manager Herbert Chapman was enjoying the fruits of his labour when his side won the league for the 3rd succcesive time. The last season they won, saw the club never allow more than 2 goals in a match. Even with such success the allure of the London crowds and double wages – £2,000, Herbert Chapman left Huddersfiled Town to take on the mantle at Arsenal.
Chapman’s effect on the club was immediate. He signed 34 year old Charlie Buchan, Sunderland’s leading scorer and made him Captain. Together the two of them changed how Arsenal would work on the field – in part because of the new rules on offsides – reducing the number of opposition players from three to two. The formation affectionately known as the “WM” for its alignment of players on the field is really a 3-4-3 that saw the inside forwards to the midfield.
In itself that wasn’t really revolutionary as many teams had done this. In fact quite a few teams employed the scheme against Arsenal at one point, notably Newcastle United in a 7-0 win. What was revolutionary was Chapman’s reliance on counter-attacking football, with pacy wingers and a strong defence.
An FA Cup win was to bring in an era of unprecedented success for the club having the clubs eventually win 5 league titles. But it wasn’t just a change in formation that propelled the club forward.
The key was a perfected the ruthless, counter-attacking football. Up front, he employed a front line supported by deep-lying inside forwards, filling the gap vacated by the movement of the centre half into defence. Chapman employed a pair of pacy wingers who could cut inside instead of hugging the touchline this way they could either shoot for goal themselves or pick each other out if the centre forward was marked out of the game. Keeping and dwelling on the ball and individuality were discouraged in favour of a quick passing game.
“Chapman was also equally committed to a strong defence, saying maintaining a back line was “the rock bottom of football.” Arsenal’s defence were told to play deep and with the support of the wing halves, fall back into their own when the opposition had the ball; this allowed the opposition plenty of possession in Arsenal’s half, until they reached the 18-yard line and faced a massed defence. Once Arsenal regained the ball the ball would be quickly passed forward and the wing halves would push up to support the attackers, meaning Arsenal could quickly commit as many as seven men forward as a unit to rapidly attack and score.” – direct from Wikipedia
Chapman strongly emphasised the fitness of his players. Chapman’s use of fast, counter-attacking passing football was in direct conflict with how contrasted with how the game was being played in the day. The game had an emphasis on dribbling and possession. It was during this time that the lovely phrase – “Boring Arsenal” was born. However, much to their detractors, they scored 127 league goals. They missed the league record by one goal.
Move forward to 1996. An unknown frenchman who had been managing a Japanese side is offered to take the club over form a recently sacked Bruce Ricoh. The signing is met with perplexion as it is the clubs first manager from outside the UK. His signing is met with headlines like “Arsene Who” from the Guardian. But much like Chapman, new manager Arsene Wenger brings in two players immediately, Patrick Viera and Remi Garde. The club goes on to place third in his first season missing Champion’s League qualification by goal differential.
In his second season Arsenal go on to win the Premier League and FA Cup. The key was a blend of an inherited defence and key Arsene Wenger signings. During his tenure Arsenal would win the double again in 2001-2002. The team would win the League one more time in 2003-2004 – the era of the “Invincibles” – without a single loss. In between the first wins in 1996 the club would win the FA Cup again in 2001-2002 and 2002-2003.
Arsene’s first major changes were much like his managerial ancestor. He immediately reformed the clubs dietary and training regimes. In addition to the training, Arsene also changed how the club played on the pitch. Prior to his arrival, Arsenal were known as defencive, boring club. They were hated and despised notorious for their negativity and aggressiveness.
What the unknown frenchman brought to Arsenal was a brand of football that was anti-English. Arsenal’s new philsophy centred on slowly building up the ball from the back and passing the ball in short, quick one-touch passes. It’s exquisite when it works, frustrating when it leads to nothing more than missed chances.
Former England coach Don Howe, and now Arsenal scout:
“For Arsene, it is technique over everything. He wants to know what a player?s touch, control and vision is like. Without that, they can forget it, it is his No.1 quality.”
Arsenal’s squads are now always cited for their technical ability and the “beauty” of their playing and while the silverware has been barren in the last 4 years – when Arsene’s system is working – there are few clubs they can’t stand toe to toe with.
While both men were of different times. Chapman and Wenger altered drastically how the club played and was perceived. Chapman didn’t live long enough to see the full fruits of his success. Arsene, he may be a victim of his own success. Chapman may have had more of a focus on defence but they both understood the need to be pacy and play attacking football. They also understood that youth was necessary to the long term success of the club and both had similar financial constraints they had to work within.
There are only two busts in the Emirates and its of these two club icons. So far apart in time but so close in the need to make changes in order for the club to be winners.
Editor’s note: Most of the information for this article is (especially on Chapman) came from Wikipedia.
113 comments
Leave a reply
You must be logged in to post a comment.
Hello there, just became alert to your blog through Google, and identified that it’s actually informative. I’m going to watch out for brussels. I will appreciate if you continue this in future. Many individuals is going to be benefited from your writing. Cheers!
Gotta agree with Fred about ManCity with just a couple of caveats, but others have already mentioned them. And what about DeJong? (not mentioned so far) Seems a solid player: skilled, good passer, physical presence, if a bit slow…better than Barry in the center of the park? The big thing for City is will they be able to break down the “park the bus”, lesser teams, especially away from middle-Eastlands? So far so good, for them, I guess, and I do expect them to give tough games against all the “big teams,” which mixes things up for the traditional big four, as will their transfer dealings in January.
Getting excited about Arsenal football in 24 hours….hoping we pick up where we left off. I tried to link to a video of Rosicky (w/czech rep.) on 101 great goals but it got spammed or something…it’s pretty cool and shows just how sweet our latest “new signing” is….
Almunia 50-50 with his chest cold?!? Fabianski back from injury? GK controversy is on, big time….
Sure you gotta agree! Nobody wants to believe that there is a “new team” knocking on the door.
It’s scary for big 4 fans, because they don’t like change!
Totteringham are pretty good too.
“The standings tell you all you need to know….”
So can we confidently say that we’ll come 5th, ‘Pool 6th and if you want CL football get yourself to White Hart Lane?
And sadly for West Ham, Pompey and (not so sadly) Hull City–You guys are going down….
No sermon this weekend at the Church of Doom…just read the table…
AW gives his press conference and it seems Old Manny will start with Young Manny on the bench. Fabianski’s not ready yet, and same with Nasri. Clichy’s knocked so Gibbs will start. Vela, Dudu and Bendnter also out.
OH NOOOOOO!!!
This is the worst news I have heard in a month!
The Middle East may be rich in oil and cash, with their billionaires busy purchasing their play toys in the Premiership. Nevertheless, their national games seem to be in decline.
Two decades ago, the Asia WC qualification spots were dominated by teams from the Middle East, with only South Korea managed to break the monopoly. After having a look on the World Cup qualification latest, I noticed there is a real chance the coming World Cup may have no representative from the Middle East.
Great write up on City.
Look as far as the harmony at City – Robinho’s wanting to go should tell you all you need to know.
The standings tell you all you need to know.
The standings never lie.
Bullshit!
Standings matter ONLY at the end of the season.
I remember you gloating about Everton’s poor start last season.
Where did Everton end up?
Arsenal will make top 4 a bit easily this year. It is afterwards that I would start getting a bit more worried.
Man City are a flash team. They are too much ice cream and no meat IMO.
Their Villa game showed a lot of the things I suspected. Plus, Mark Hughes is a big time suspect coach.
———————————————————–
Lets have a look at their team.
Attack:
Tevez: For me, one of the most OVER RATED players of ALL time. The guy is like Heskey (same poor goal record) but at least Heskey is very UNSELFISH unlike Tevez. There is a reason Ferguson never played him in the really big games and let him go easy.
Santa Cruz: One season wonder. Was never impressed him back when he was toiling in Germany, still not impressed with him now. He is like AdeOffside but slower. With worse control if you can believe that.
Robinho: Class. But he will leave soon hopefully.
Bellamy: Having an Indian Summer, but it aint gonna last past the next 1 or 2 months. He is a whack player on form and it would show soon.
AdeBarndoor: Whats is motivation? NOTHING. He is a technically limited player who will refuse to learn anything. Drogba was learning from Mourinho, but Adebayors has already grown too big for his own good hence he wont progress past what he was 2 seasons ago. He might still bring it up against Arsenal, but on the big nights he will still not be there.
Midfield:
Petrov: Fast. Worse than A. Young and definitely worse than Arshavin, Rosicky or Vela.
Kompany: Suspect. I would Song thank you.
Barry: Plays as a DM in some games, plays as an AM in others. Jack of all master of none. Man City fans are ALREADY complaining that he does not “bring it” when it matters.
Ireland: I like him. But he aint better than Fabregas.
SWP: See Petrov.
Defense:
Bridge: Dont rate him. Has too much of the Clichys about him. If Gibbs starts 15 league and cup games this season he will get the WC nod over Bridge.
Richards: Overrated.
Toure/Lescott: Aerially useless. Why Wenger didnt target them aerially I will never know. Every time there was corner, you would see Lescott doing the vibrating, chicken dance. LOL! He and Toure are twins. They will soon be found out.
Given: Top class. I wish we had him.
Manager:
Mark Hughes: Doesnt have the goods upstairs. I rate him far lower than ONeill, Moyes, Redknapp and even Steve Bruce. You can give him the Brazil NT with Ronaldo and Romario at their prime and he still wouldnt crack top 4.
———————————————————————-
In the end, City just dont have a player like Arshavin or Fabregas. They dont have a Rosicky or Eduardo either.
Infact we are a solid DM and a proper GK away from being a top, top team. Too bad Wenger is too stubborn to fix the little leak before it turns into a gaping hole.
The only top 4 team that should be modestly worried is Liverpool and even then they should still make it.
Bellamy is a class player, always has been. Just been very unlucky with injuries.
Rate him higher than the overrated Robinho, that’s for sure.
Overall, I think we’re better than Man City but we’ll see. They’ve got big firepower which means they will get results their general play does not merit.
With Petrov, SWP, Bellamy and Ade, they’v got serious pace as well, albeit Bellamy is the only one that really uses it intelligently.
Lets agree to disagree.
Bellamy is a testerone, headless chicken player. Like Tevez, he looks really good….but in default mode they are just useless and team retarding.
You’ll agree with me at the end of the season.
As for their pace…thats all well and good, but when your threat is Petrov and SWP am sorry I am going to turn my nose up. In the long run, thats a junk threat.
As for Ade, Mazza, in WHAT really big game has he ever used his pace for any good??
If Bellamy stays fit – big if – he will be Man City’s player of the season. I would love him at Arsenal. He can never stay fit though.
You know what Ade is like. Shit most of the time but then there will be that moment when he shows his strengths and scores a goal, at least when he decides to work hard and pretend he’s some hard worker. This time next year, when the novely wears off, I won’t be including him in the ‘danger’ category. But this year he’ll try and play above himself again.
I don’t rate any of them that highly either, just saying there a dangerous bunch for alot of teams in the league.
Agree with Mazza about Bellamy. Healthy, he is a big plus in their energy level and
confidence of play.
SWP has never impressed me. One good moment bookended by numerous poor last touches.
Fred is right about their defense (especially Richards and Bridge) and Given being a huge plus.
IMO – much of Hughes manager success at Blackburn was due to solid play of Friedals. I think Givens provides similar stability.
30 games left – too many variable for every club.
We’ll see Fred.
While I hope you are correct on ManCity, I highly doubt it.
Tevez is an excellent player. He can carry a team like he did at WestHam, and he can play with other good players like he did at United.
I’d say he is under-rated.
Santa Cruz hasn’t had playing time YET, so not sure how he can be called a one-season wonder. But surely a GREAT option off the bench.
Robinho was highly touted and coveted by Wenger, and if he gets on the pitch again, just more talent.
You don’t have to like Bellamy, but the fact is, he scores regularly. He plays with passion and an edge. Someone you want on your time, and hate on another team.
Their midfield has a good mix and good collection of talent. Young, Petrov, Barry, Ireland, DeJong, Kompany, SWP.
SPEED yes, talent yes, size yes.
Defense might be where they are suspect, but Given helps that cause a lot.
Toure has played VERY well for them. And Lescott is a very good defender. Everton did NOT want to lose him.
Bridge is not bad at all, solid. Richards is not bad, and very versatile, and Zabaleta is a decent young player. Sylvinho is depth and experience at the back. If he can do that at Barca, he can do it at ManCity.
ManCity are going to be there ALL YEAR. Right to the end, just like Aston Villa last year.
They might falter, but you know they WILL bring in even more talent if necessary in January. Villa didn’t.
Yeah, he can carry a team like West Ham … but then again he was in the team for the WHOLE season yet only came to life at the end.
On form he is an impressive looking player, but in default mode, serious managers like Ferguson dont waste their time with him.
As you say, we’ll see soon.
Man City will be pushing us and Liverpool…
come January, they will be bringing in even more fire-power & proven talent.
They’ve done very well so far without Robinho, so… now there is apparently discussion of Robinho to Barcelona.
In return, they will get cash, and/or … HENRY(32), PUYOL(31), ABIDAL(30), YAYA(26).
They will get their pick of these guys?
If they are smart, they take Yaya Toure… in his PRIME, will only get better, and will most certainly help their midfield and defense.
If IF IIIIIIFFFF this occurs, and I hope it doesn’t…
Then MAN CITY is ready for prime time. They might be now, but this would cement it.
I really wish we managed to get their keeper, Given… who is in my humble opinion, far better than anything we have in goal.
It should be a wild and crazy season in the English Premier League.
I am excited about that… as it is truly wide open, but I fear that this might actually be the season where we fall from grace (the top 4 that is)
Re: movement & formations
The game is about the individual match ups on the pitch.
A manager will study the other teams strength’s and weaknesses, then evaluate their own team, those
available to play and develop and prepare set plays and system.
Tactics are only relevant and effective if you have the players to execute! The other manager will be preparing the same strategy.
I think I can firmly say that Kroneke will buy ONLY if Usmanov makes a move to try and force a takeover.
Right now Usmanov is effectively blocked out unless he manages to convince Lady Bracewell-Smith to sell her shares. Even then he’d likely be forced to test the resolve of board by some real exorbitant price per share.
Also, I think I can also say that Stan’s running the club would be to let Ivan Gazidis run the club. He is a hand’s off owner.
He doesn’t need many more shares, and Usmanov is not relevant in him getting to 30%.
He isn’t buying shares to get to 29.9% and stopping.
He might be hands off, but there is a chance he might realize we need PLAYERS in order to compete, and if the owner / board says buy, then you do, or you go.
Oh, and GO STAN!
Kroenke increases stake yet again!
An American owner of the Arsenal…
:)
Hoping he forces Wenger’s hand in bringing in a few players when
he becomes THE BOSS!
An American owner would be awesome better than that slimy Soviet dude anyway.
He’ll show the ignorant Brits how its done! Yeah, I said it! ;-)
How much for Cesc?!
So if Barcelona, Real Madrid and now ManCity… are all interested in him, and there is as bidding war between the three next Summer, how much is “enough”.
And please, every team has its price… especially Arsenal.
And I’ve heard on this site 100 times, no player is bigger than the club…
so if Barca say 35Mill, Real say 45Mill and ManCity say 60!
Do we sell to ManCity?
Maybe a swap for Robinho!
LOL
yes, these days, rumors of transfer follow every good player….
Cesc is Catalin and if he ever found a need to move from Arsenal,
it would likely be Barca.
Unlike, Mr. Offside, Arsene loves this player (Cesc) and with him just coming
into his prime, his asset to Arsenal is far greater than the monetary
compensation.
Soon, Song will be a target of top clubs.
Song will never be the target of top clubs like Cesc is.
And his asset being far greater than monetary compensation is non-sense.
EVERY team has a price. Every player has a price.
LOTS of money will be thrown Arsenal’s way for Cesc, and Arsenal will CASH in Cesc, like they have every other star player.
The question is to whom, and how much.
It might not be until the Summer of 2011, but it WILL happen.
Stag, you’re entitled to your speculation, but using the word “never” will come back to bite you. Song is young, has proven himself against the best competition: he will be in demand.
I do agree about every team has a price, but Arsenal’s financial climate (at the moment) is not in crisis. I believe Arsene has stated many times that maintaining player continuity is critical for the club’s success.
If Arsenal achieve key silverware (EPL or CL) and Arsene can maintain a strong support cast (like Arshavin, Rosicky, Eduardo, RvP – plus younger players start to bloom) then I see Cesc finding it difficult to rationalize reasons to return home.
It’s not about Arsenal but what do you guys think about Charlie Davis’ car accident? He’s a real shining light in the US team and I even started watching for him playing in France. We’ll see if he can ever play again. I also hope that if their was foul play on behalf of the guy driving, that his insurance will cover him. That kid is lucky to be alive.
What a tragedy. CD is very ‘lucky’. Thoughts and prayers go to the families of the driver and other
passenger.
Re: the USA v. Costa Rica match:
Is anyone expecting USA team to do anything in the WC if they play like last night.
Was the Confederations Cup, just a fluke?
I thought CR was better organized and disciplined in their responsibilities.
why would they be up for the game? do you think they cared about the match?
We already qualified… England just lost to Ukraine, do you think that mattered to them?
We have a decent chance to make a good showing at the World Cup.
Don’t take the match against Costa Rica to mean anything.
Stag, so we disagree.
England losing did not jeopardize their finishing 1st.
finishing 1st in CONCACAF gives USA advantage in December WC draw…
this point was emphasized prior to the match and motivational for players.
and as competitive athletes, USA team wanted some revenge for the earlier
lopsided loss at CR.
– bad form doesn’t build morale and is contagious –
Annual Arsenal survey conducted by the Arsenal Independent Supporters’ Association:
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=oBEKnHrdFY1_2bI2ZpO_2fV05g_3d_3d
Anyone can take it. I just did, and I’d say about 1/2 the questions don’t apply to us since they’re geared toward people who attend matches. But the other half relate to club ownership/finances, merchandising, fan loyalty, etc, and those are of relevance to all Gooners.
I think this is a good opportunity, since the people who compile these surveys will be present at the Arsenal Annual General Meeting, where they will be able to address the most pressing fan concerns (as determined by survey responses) to the Board and other Club officials.
That is interesting! According to the report, Fabregas is faster than Clichy (in terms of top speed)!
Yeah thats what struck me too. It must be over a very short distance. 50m – 80m types. Does any coach here know.. after what distance to speeds start becoming relevant? As in Cesc at full tilt can keep up with Theo at full tilt for how long? 20m – 30m? I’m sure there will be scientific analysis out there which will be very interesting to read.
Fabregas faster than Gerrard, Rooney, Robinho and Clichy is extremely suspicious.
Fred, not suspicious but Bogus.
Yea it does seem off. I wish they explained their methods better. Of course that wouldn’t be possible if it was bogus. It is in the sun after all…
Although IF not bogus, the only possible explanation would be that a player renowned for speed is more to do with acceleration that actual top speed.
I’m starting to think Clichy is an optical illusion. For someone supposedly so fast to NEVER even look like getting behind an opponent’s defence or break into their area is extremely odd.
By the way, Clichy is physically CRASHING in my opinion – declining big style. Did anyone see his attempt to track back for the Blackburn second goal?
A high-twitch athlete with a short shelf life. Get rid as soon as Arsene.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/2601087/Theo-Walcott-is-the-Premier-Leagues-fastest-player.html
Was bored, playing FIFA, looking up fast players and found this. Sol Campbell???
Speaking of games, Championship Manager has generated a lot of hype since released back in the summer.
If anyone hasn’t bought it, my advice – DON’T.
True their interface is slick and cool. And the new setpieces designer sounded interesting enough.. until you bought the game and found out that it’s utterly meaningless.
CM, as usual, forgotten what it matters most to make a great game – the match engine.
When your match engine is crap, the rest becomes irrelevant.
I am going to stick with my FM. Roll on Oct 30!
Formations blah blah.. all that matters is movement. If you have the right players you can have wonderful movement. And hence win games. For eg. I have no clue what AFC play this season .. though its widely described as a 4-3-3. You could also call it a 4-1-2-2-1 if you consider Song as a DM. You could while we’re at it.. also call it a 2-1-2-2-2-1 if you consider that our fullbacks are more wingbacks that are beyond the halfline at any point. Or while we’re at it we can call it a 10 .. yeah just a 10.. coz our top scorer is a CB who keeps lashing em in from all angles. Now which formation allows a CB to wander upfield that much? None… none .. none… I’m a genius.. I’ve figured it out … Patent. The 1-10 is the new formation where everybody attack randomly and you won’t be shocked to see your CF putting in a tackle to break up play on your dee. Yes..thats it. AW is a revolutionary. Done :D
A nice line on some message board though:
Players lose you games, not tactics. There’s so much crap talked about tactics by people who barely know how to win at dominoes.
-Brian Clough
p.s… Waits for Fred to now run down Brian Clough ;)
Players lose you games, tactics WIN you games.
You try going out to do something complicated without a plan or without a strategy. You know, just letting things happen.
PS: Brian Clough was a legend. Taking a team from relegation zone in the old second div. to 2 European Cups in a couple of years is something that actually trumps Wengers record.
PS:
Ajax never played a Xmas tree formation.
You gotta be kidding me Fred. Now I don’t pretend i know who invented the X’mas Tree formation, but it’s Ajax which made it famous.
In fact, so impressed on the X’mas Tree, Terry Veneables wanted to get England to play it back in Euro 96.
btw, the HIGH TEMPO, one touch game I was talking about is not counter attack.
That’s pretty much the trademark of our football back in 2002-2004. Do u even know the definition of a HIGH TEMPO game?
I repeat – ANY team can pass the ball well with a slow tempo game, but to pass it so well in a HIGH TEMPO game it’s extremely difficult. That’s what made our class of 2002, 2004 so special.
We were quite special in the 2002-2004 era.
Nothing like it.
I was responding to:
“I hadn’t. One touch, two touch, then GOAL. From back to front took less than 10 seconds.”
That is called COUNTER ATTACK.
Andez, as a teenager, I was a season ticket holder at the De Meers in east Amsterdam so not only can I tell you ALL the Ajax players between 91 and 96, I can tell you what formation they played.
I can also assure you that Finidi George hugging the right touchline and Marc Overmars hugging the left touchline with Jari Litmanen dancing in the middle and De Boer (normally a CM) playing as the “pointman” is NOT a Xmas tree formation.
The Xmas tree was more of a Serie A formation in those days.
So Why didn’t you stick with Ajax then?
Why changed to support Arsenal?
Because we COPIED their style?!
Oh I still support Ajax. They are my childhood club.
The Bosman ruling did the club in as well as the entire German, Dutch, Portuguese, French, Belgian, etc leagues. Meaning a complete loss of talent.
The MAIN reason I started supporting Arsenal was DENNIS BERGKAMP. The guy was born like 2 minutes from where I lived then.
And oh yeah, Wenger copied the Ajax style. And there is no shame in it.
Last comment:
Andez, do you really believe Arsenal was the first team to play a high tempo passing game??
I believe in what I SAW. Period.
If you had seen any other team playing the SAME way as we did in 2002, 2004. Good for you. Personally, I never had the luck to withness it.
When you sum up the fact you never watched Ajax (considering you thought they played Xmas tree) AND think the world of Wenger, I wont poke you any further. LOL.
All in all, Wenger didnt start anything really new, and as such is not comparable to Chapman. He modernized the club, managed it fiscally well, got us a new stadium and incorporated the “right” type of football to play. And that is very commendable.
I only know Arsenal as AW’s team so…what do I know? I must say I like it (especially lately…..) even if that might have a few of the regulars dismiss me as an AKB, or HO, or maybe even Fucktard….Oh well…
Personally I think the league could do with a few more AWs, a few more managers/teams bringing in young, foreign talent, developing modern facilities and attempting to create a stable platform for long-term success, but again that’s just me.
It seems to me the English game is at a bit of cross-roads. Huge indebtedness threatens the Northern Giants (ManU, Liverpool) who seem to be becoming “selling clubs”. (Where have I heard that before?) Of course, some clubs whore themselves out to Sugar Daddies who might not mind paying the inflated transfer fees and wages (high wage taxes) that bring and keep world class players in England, but then they are subject to the same rich boys losing interest in their playthings or trying to play Football Manager. Trying to do the same but in a financially responsible manner seems more and more difficult all the time, the superior world wide reach of English Football on television seems just about the only real advantage the “Premier” league has on it’s principal rival, La Liga.
It’ll be pretty interesting how things fall out over the next 8 months. Can the English teams dominate and bring back a Champion’s League trophy? And what of the World Cup? “Serious” football fans might dismiss it, but if Spain (or, and I’m only saying this rhetorically, England) were to win it, more worldwide fans would be watching that country’s domestic league.
And have any of the regulars been watching the internationals? Personally I couldn’t stop watching Cesc the other day. It was only Armenia, but I think our boy has found another level. As cheeky/brilliant as his goal was, his inch-perfect pass that won the penalty (and the match) was just as good. It was interesting how he towers over Xavi and Iniesta and is unafraid in the tackle (learning from Rosicky?). You can see why Barca would want him playing with those guys, but he’s ours–at least for now….
On the other hand, I suffered along with AA23, watching his inept teammates unable to break through on Germany and then conceding a goal and limping home. (Needing two goals for the automatic spot in South Africa against decent competition–Germany’s a bit better than Wales–was a hill too steep). I thought Andrey played pretty well, but his “don’t watch me, I’m tired,” body language probably hurt his teammates as well as the Moscow crowd, though they should really know better (as we’re learning). I only saw a bit of the Denmark-Sweden match, but Nicky B looked good (reborn with a strong work-rate after his near death experience?) And Carlos Vela looked the class of the Mexican team in highlights of that match. Cameroon-Togo? Can’t find any video of that one, but the result (3-nil) suggests that Ade didn’t run the pitch for any knee-sliding.
Arsenal football is at least on the horizon, but Arsenal America (you remember that site? I check it when I’m REALLY bored, says it’s on SetantaExtra Only–DirectTV ch. 622). Count me as worried. Any fellow US watchers know how to deal with this?
I do know that global rights for distribution for Arsenal TV have been awarded to MP & Silva agency:
http://www.sportbusiness.com/news/170660/mp-silva-secures-arsenal-tv-international-rights?utm_source=sbinsl&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=oct08
How do you figure Liverpool or ManU are threatened? Keep holding your breathe on that non-sense! They are not going anywhere. Arsenal is “THE” selling team… none of the other big 3 sell the way we do. The only big player ManU sold was Ronaldo, and he had a deal the year before he went… that he would go. And without him, they are still one of the two best in the league. They can buy in January if they need it as well.
Also, the EPL DOMINATES!
Two years in a row, we have had 3 teams in the Final 4 of the Champion’s League. That’s not a fluke.
Anyway, his wiki claims Wenger was on the verge of handing him the Arsenal captaincy in the summer of 06 when he was handed the number 6
———————————-
I believe it’s true. At least according to Tony Adams. Tony claimed AW had consulted him whether he felt Senderos was up for the captain role, Tony said it sounds fine to him.
Anyway, an article I read from 442 a few months back I think had a valid point – only the Brits made such a fuss out of captaincy. As if it would make any difference towards a team’s fortune.
According to the article, plenty of foreign nations/clubs simply named their senior players as their captain.
I believe leadership and captaincy can be two different matters. If you are a leader you don’t need an armband to make an impact to your teammates on the pitch. Players naturally look up to the guy who has that leadership quality, with or without armband on his arm.
Arsene Wenger did not “copy” his style of football from anyone. Ajax didn’t play the way we did, they always had their own style. And their unqiue X’mas tree (since when did Arsenal play a X’mas tree formation?). Barcelona had their own style as well. and changed it from time to time depends on who’s their manager (as their managers kept on changing anyway). Teams only play their football the way their MANAGER wants them to. Not because of the name of the club they are playing for.
Take our 2004 season, that one touch, high tempo passing game, has anyone seen it from anywhere BEFORE?
I watched the game for more than 2 decades. NEVER had I seen anything like that in my life.
Of course i had seen plenty teams playing great passing football, like Brazil on the 80s, Denmark, France of the 80s. Or that fluent Liverpool side of 80s.
But none of them played with such PACE, and high tempo.
Arsenal 2002-2004 were as good a footballing side as anyone in the history of the game of football. And it’s UNIQUE.
Even Wenger himself wants to try building a team like that again, he couldn’t.
Why? Cos you need the right players to come along at the same time to build a side like that.
The 3 key players – Vieira, Henry and Bergkamp. No amount of money you can buy right now in the transfer market… cos players like them simply do not exist at the moment.
“Take our 2004 season, that one touch, high tempo passing game, has anyone seen it from anywhere BEFORE?”
YES, that style, specifically the one we played, was first used in Ajax. They have been doing it since the early 70s, when they won 3 straight CLs and got the Dutch to two WC finals. And they came back briefly in the 80s and 90s.
Xmas tree? What Xmas tree??
The last golden Ajax team in the early-mid 90s played a 4-3-3 or 3-3-3-1. Infact R. De Boer who is normally a midfielder starting as their MOST advanced forward.
No, Wenger did NOT invent “Wengerball”.
There is a reason, Bergkamp, Vieira, Henry, Wenger and co. were all soppy eyed when Michel died in 2005.
Infact, Henry admitted the team watched loads of Ajax 70s videos.
That is where they copied their “passed penalty” routine which Pires and Henry botched.
In the end the point is Chapman massively revolutionized the game as it is. Wenger didnt really.
Well, good for you that you had watched the Wenger ball before Wenger.
I hadn’t. One touch, two touch, then GOAL. From back to front took less than 10 seconds.
And we scored goals like that again and again during the 2002-04 seasons.
You saw that BEFORE from any other side?!
I sure hell can’t remember Ajax or Holland or Brazil or any other team playing this way. Golden era or not.
Like I said, it’s not just about the PASSING game.
Passing game is nothing new.
I am talking about an ONE TOUCH passing game, which play in HIGH TEMPO.
PS- Xmas Tree = 4321 formation.
“I hadn’t. One touch, two touch, then GOAL. From back to front took less than 10 seconds. ”
Dude, that is called the counter attack. Hebert Chapman invented that.
The one-two, constant movement in a fluid formation is an Michel patent. Wenger eulogized him for that when he died.
Go watch a video of the old Ajax teams, you will see an extreme similarity in playing style. No need to argue about it.
PS:
Ajax never played a Xmas tree formation.
No, Fred what Ajax did was not Wengerball. Their style of play was different their game was not at such a high tempo. Heck! as you stated yourself they didn’t even play the same formation (Wengerball blossomed in a 4-4-2.) Ajax were typically continental but with the addition of the innovative at that time Total Football and of course they were attack minded. That is what Wenger would have wanted his charges to learn from Ajax primarily, Total Football. Of course he would have wanted them to pick up any other good thing, I doubt that would have included the penalty botch though :-D
As I wrote above Arsene did revolutionise the British game. Why are you trying so hard to belittle his achievements?
Total football can be played in several formations with the principles of constant, fluid interchange, short, fast passes and constant movements.
Am not belittling Wenger, he is a great manager, he just did not bring anything really new to the game as compared to say Herbert Chapman or Rinus Michel.
Infact after the 70s it is almost impossible to think up new stuff – except say new formations or new tactics. And even then at this point you are pretty much just using some elses idea.
The Allardayce “ideas” of throw-ins that resemble freekicks and goal kicks that drop into the oppositions six yard box are the closest to new inventions in the game. LOL!
Ajax’ game was never as fast as ours. “fluid interchange, short, fast passes and constant movements” is an prequiste or an aspiration of any technical side these days including ManU, Brazil and even Spain. However each of these teams express themselves differently and to claim one of them has been copied by the others is incorrect in my opinion. It is like saying Wenger was the first man to score a goal and anyone who scores a goal is copying Wenger. Truth is we even before Ajax you had teams playing “short, fast passes and constant movement” what was innovative about Ajax is how they coupled that with the interchanging of positions. They emphasis the need for the player sto be able to play all over the pitch in effect making them “Total Footballers”
How about how Arsene revolutionised the British game with his sports science and continental methods? You cannot take that away from him Fred.
As for the topic, I dont think Wenger is anywhere as revolutionary as Chapman.
The dietary and training regimen Wenger brought in were already standard fare in Europe. But “incredible” in then backwards England. The fact that the famous back four had first heard about stretching before training from Wenger showed that England was at least 15 years behind the rest of Europe, and Wenger was literally one of the first foreign coaches of a top club in England.
“Wengerball” was a complete lift older principles that could be found in Ajax and Barca. And he continues to copy those.
Even the converting of a fast, skillful winger-type player into a forward and the use of a big, ball winning, box-to-box guy in the center were direct lifts off the old Ajax manual.
Wenger has been great from Arsenal, but revolutionary he has not been.
To be fair though, it is rather difficult to be revolutionary in modern times because a lot of the standards have already been set. Unlike in Chapmans times when the game was still relatively new.
To be revolutionary now, you would need to invent a new formation or tactic that is successful. And that would be a little like re-inventing the wheel.
The last manager to actually “invent” a formation was Louis Van Gaal in 94/95 when he used the 3-3-3-1 formation.
Van dar saar; Reizeger, Blind, F De Boer; Riykaard, Seedorf, Davids; Finidi, Litmanen, Overmans; R De Boer
….managed to hold out for 2 years and win the CL but wingers started punishing it too much. But that was literally the last tactical or formation revolution in the game.
I think you could make a case for Roma’s 4-6-0 as a new formation, if it ever gets more widespread usage. They played that style for a lot of their games two seasons ago, but I’m not sure if they still do, since I don’t keep up with the Italian game very much.
I agree AW is not as revolutionary as Chapman, though he has had more success. (Although the comparison is a bit unfair since the team that Chapman built went on to win more trophies after his untimely passing.)
Actually the 4-6-0 is the basic “total football” formation. Rinus Michels idea was that everyone can fit and play anywhere, but he later relented and admitted that at least 3 or 4 have to “specialize” in defending.
To be honest it is incredibly hard to think of something really new to add to the game and also be successful too.
I would agree but in not such strong terms that Chapman is more revolutionary as Wenger. The fact that his innovations that I stated earlier, the introduction of the white ball and the numbers on the back of shirts revolutionised world football. As you said it was easier to have such a major impact back then as these were formulative years for football, however Wenger is nevertheless a revolutionary to the English game, however backward it may have been in comparison to the continenet.
Lets not belittle his accomplishments. It may not have been his invention but nonetheless HE changed the English game forever.
His EMPHASIS on developing from the grass roots up and the investment in youth has also been copied by major clubs such as Chelsea. I am not saying that clubs did not bring in the best foreign young talent and develop youth academies but Wenger has shown how investment in the youth structure can bear great rewards. Maybe not as revolutionary but it has certainly turned a few heads.
I would agree but in not such strong terms that Chapman is more revolutionary than Wenger.
The fact that Herbert’s innovations, which I stated earlier, the introduction of the white ball and the numbers on the back of shirts revolutionised world football. As you said it was easier to have such a major impact back then as these were formulative years for the game. However, Wenger is nevertheless a revolutionary to the English game, no matter how backward it may have been in comparison to the continenet.
Lets not belittle his accomplishments. It may not have been his invention but nonetheless HE changed the English game forever.
His EMPHASIS on developing from the grass roots up and the investment in youth has also been copied by major clubs such as Chelsea. I am not saying that clubs did not bring in some of the best foreign young talent and develop youth academies but Wenger has shown how major investment in the youth structure can bear great rewards. Maybe it is not as revolutionary but it has certainly turned a heads.
Yup, but one can also argue that Ferguson has actually pushed through more youth than Wenger.
Our Invincibles were all bought or inherited – apart from Ashley Cole. Not exactly ingrown.
I think you mean homegrown Fred :-)
Ferguson had not invested much in foreign talent as had Wenger. Wengers said when he arrived that it would take 10 years for the investment in the youth academy to bear fruit. He was spot on. There are two barometers you can look at. First the amount of money he has made from selling youth that (I presume) he has deemed not good enough for Arsenal.Muamba £4 mill, Stokes £2-4 mill, Larseon £2 mill, Bently intial 4 mill and then what? another £8 mill or so. Another barometer would be last season success in the youth cup, we have never done a double before and I am sure we will have a few first team players from that side.
When it comes to profits from selling youth players, Ferguson is still number one on that count.
Besides profits from selling kids and success in anything other than the CL, league, FA or CC cup does not matter at all.
That’s not ture Fred. Name me who Alex has sold for any substantial fee while they are still youth team players.
The Youth cup double means nothing at all?! Not in my eyes I ahev waited over ten years to see us win those trophy’. The youth cup let’s us know where aour youth structure and academy is in camparison to other. Winning the double and beating some of the best teams in English youth football along the way (Man City, Aston Villa, Spurs and Liverpool) is no small feat.
Why you persist in belitting the achievements of our manager I don’t understand.
Correction that was meant to read:
That’s not true Fred. Name me who Alex has sold for any substantial fee while they were still youths.
Hmmm. The likes of Campbell and Richardson cost a fare few quid. And he sells quite a bit each year.
I know it would surprise you but Man U also have talent in their youth setup. Talent that managers in lower teams would beg for.
—————-
The following teams have won the youth cup in the past few years:
Man City, Ipswich Town, Middlesboro, Aston Villa, Leeds, West Ham, Liverpool, etc.
Winning a youth cup doesnt mean squat.
…. :-D
Chapman and Wenger were both revolutionaries in all of football, not just at Arsenal. So many things we take for granted came from Chapman:
1. He proposed making the ball white so it would be easier to see. Before that brown leather was the standard.
2. Numbers on the backs of shirts was Chapman’s idea as well. Before that there was the club crest on the front and nothing on the back.
3. Who got the authorities to rename the Tube station to “Arsenal”? That was Chapman as well.
4. Night-time matches? Chapman again. “In the 1930s, Herbert Chapman installed lights into the new West Stand at Highbury but the Football League refused to sanction their use. This situation lasted until the 1950s, when the popularity of floodlit friendlies became such that the League relented.”
White footballs, floodlit stadiums, and player numbers are so elemental we don’t even think twice about them today, but the idea to implement each one all came from the same man.
AW is the same way, but I don’t think his contributions to the modern game need to be re-hashed here; we’re all well-aware of those.
Indeed he did Mazza! ;-)
Alas, and I know you know this, players in their prime need to feel vital to their team. Even winning a medal (or 2) is a hollow form of consolation.
It is a shame, Hleb had fashioned himself a key role at Arsenal and I was cool with that. Altho I tend to agree with you, whilst Arsenal suffered immediately from his (and Flam’s) departure, I now think we may be stronger. Hleb always presented to me as being weak as a character (I know you may not agree). He seemed to need mentally strong players around him to excel. And we know that physically he was a passenger. So those factors and his incredible aversion to shooting count against him. Compare that to Arshavin and Rosicky – they shoot, create, link, and are prepared to absorb more physically. So with them and Nasri we have the creative attacking players we need for our formation.
I am not sure if Hleb actually has a champions league medal.
Was he on the bench? If not, I am not sure the rule has changed or not, as from what I recall, a player needs to be at least on the bench in the final to earn a medal. That’s why Ian Wright missed out a Cup Winners’ Cup medal despite being our leading goalscorer throughout the campaign (yet missed out the final through suspension).
Hleb was *NOT* on the bench. :)
I actually thought physically he was quite robust. I remember Wenger inviting journalists to see him after the game(in jest) to see his shins for bruises because he was targetted so much. To play the way he did, inviting tackles and rough treatment, was very brave in my opinion and took alot of steel. Unlike Reyes, Hleb stayed on his feet or at least tried to, and keep the move going, which is what I liked about him.
He did present in some ways as a weak character but I think his aversion to shooting was more habit than anything. He claims it was coached out of him as a youngster. Still, he was very often our main playmaker and threat when we played at Anfield and Old Trafford, and to do this shows someone with strong constitution.
Strange case because the impression you got from him was someone at odds with himself. Maybe he too many issues within himself to propel a team to victory, and as a result is never too sure of his status in a side.
Indeed Mike, Gazidis appears to be a shrewd chap. His recent comments certainly echo the desire of Arsenal fans and issue a polite yet public reminder to Arsene of Arsenals priorities.
Hlebie’s move to Barca was so ill-judged it was frankly ridiculous – and serves as a warning. He is not an imposing player in his play nor his character so his irrelevency at a team at its zenith was predictable. I also recall some saying that by moving he couldn’t lose, well that hasn’t worked out has it? Warming the bench, particularly at a great club enjoying success, is a recipe for disillusion for an athelete in his prime. Even with a large payrise. Hleb is 100% right, he had it good at Arsenal under a manager who gave him plenty of time to adapt and accepted the limitations in his game. At Arsenal he was a key player at a huge club, at Barca he was just another wannabe at a club with a history of chewing and spitting out many bigger names.
While Hleb was the sole architect of his demise Senderos was in a sense collatoral damage in the Cole saga. Out with Cole in with Gallas and the world of Senderos at Arsenal turned wonky. The easy answer is to say that if he was good enough he would have risen above the setback, yet sometimes life isn’t that straight forward. I feel a bit for Senderos. I do think the unexpected arrival of Willy knocked a huge dent in the confidence and development of Senderos – as well as his gametime.
Well, he did get a league and champions league medal ;)
The Clichy for 16m to Real junk rumor is hilarious.
If it was actually offered I would cut their arm off.
Wenger would really love such a deal too, give Gibbs and Traore space, while expanding his precious profits.
——————————————–
How many times does the Hlebmeister have to tell us how he “regrets” leaving Arsenal.
We ALL already knew you would when you left. If the likes of Rivaldo, Ronaldo, etc who hardly did anything wrong were given the short end over there, then he had no chance whatsoever. They have a merciless crowd and setup.
Makes his open calls (last September) for Fabregas to quit Arsenal and join him at Barcelona even more embarrassing.
It’s more a case of the lazy media recycling the same old quotes and using them to repeat the same stories over and again.
In retro, it’s a good thing he’s gone. He’s been at the Rosicky level of injury prone-ness since he left.
First – interesting article – Ivan Gazidis stresses that the club must win some silverware THIS year – http://bit.ly/ffMgF
Secondly – so far one international weekend down and no major injuries to report except Theo’s dead leg. (What the hell is that?)
Also I have noticed something, we have a few players who are Captains of their respective national squads. I was trying to find out who. I know Senderos is as is Arshavin and now Vermaelen. ANyone know of anyone else.
Denilson and Diaby used to be captains of their national teams at junior level as did Cesc if I remember rightly.
Senderos is captain of Switzerland?? I thought he was dropped for the last two games?
Anyway, his wiki claims Wenger was on the verge of handing him the Arsenal captaincy in the summer of 06 when he was handed the number 6.
Wenger decided against and bought Gallas. That was a major turning point in his career right there.
Maybe playing consistenly beside Toure, Cashley and Lehmann and as captain would have boosted him to a Terry like player.
Rosicky was the captain of the Czech team.
If I were Walcott I would forget about playing for England U21 this season.
It’s silly to pick up a knock from an U21 match. Come on Theo, this is the World Cup year. A footballer would only have 3 or 4 shots for the tournament in his career, provided his country qualified.
With most of our attacking players back, there’s no guarantee Theo will stamp down a first team place at Arsenal. If he wants to stand any chance being picked for South Africa, he gotta be make sure he gets to play for Arsenal in a regular basis this season.
A knock here and there will not help the cause.
I admire Theo’s professionalism on insisting playing for England U21 whenever he’s being called upon (unlike a certain Made It Big who decided he’s too BIG for Under 21), still, at times he needs to be a bit more selfish.
I would love to see Theo Walcott playing in South Africa the next summer. Of course, there will be many more Arsenal players playing in the finals for other nations, still, it’d be quite special seeing an Arsenal player playing for England.
I would agree, he should stop messing around with the U-21s. He has been playing it for over 4 years now.
With competition from Rosicky, Arshavin, Vela, Bendtner and maybe even Wilshere he cant afford to get any more knocks that makes him miss crucial games.
Great article DAG, really, and a nice addition in the comments by LDE a nice read.
Both Arsene and Herbert were revolutionaries. Herbert didn’t just change the game for Arsenal but for English football in general. I remember reading that he is the man who got the League and I presume the FA to use a white ball instead of the traditional brown one. Obviously this increased visibility against the often muddy pitch. There was also another big innovation he was renowned for, something major like numbers on shirts. As such he has changed the English game and world football for ever. He is also the man behind our white sleeves, GENUIS! Could you image us coming out at home looking like United, I can hardly bear the thought.
Arsene is also another revolutionary that has changed the English game forever. His dietary standards were revolutionary to the Arsenal team at the time. I remember hearing Lee Dixon and Martin Keown and on another occasion Tony Adams talking about it. Players ate what they liked in those days there was little if any emphasis on the link between diet and performance. They also talked about the continental disciplined professionalism that Wenger and his new recruits brought with them. I doubt there is a team in the premier league that does not have some kind of dietary regime, it is now taken for granted that dietary standards and professional football go hand in hand. Wenger also told them that his methods would increase their careers for a number of years. They both testified that he did deliver on that promise.
Wengers undying love for his special brand of football has won a lot of plaudits as he has proven you can be successful and stick to your footballing principles… (well, to some extent). He has won over many admirers who are also sticking to their guns at the moment i.e Zola and Mowbray. Arsene’ success has prompted a lot more clubs to go for foreign managers and inevitably foreign players. I think the domestic game and eventually the national game in the UK will benefit from this in the long run. Fresh ideas, approaches and standards will be introduced to the British game and be learned by players, coaches and future coaches alike to the benefit of future generations of British football teams domestically and nationally.
Arsene is our most successful manager and the best man for the job at present time despite any mistakes he may have made. I doubt if Herbert, God bless him, would have been able to have had such an impact employing the tactics he used in the 30s in such a highly techinical era as today. The financial strength of the oppostion these days is amazing and to be up there with the best of them is no mean feat especially as we are essentially using a “youth policy.”
Hey Mike (DAG), I’ve opened this new account, could you activate it making it possible to post new post like my old account? Thanks.
You’re new account is updated Andez.
thanks!
I know nothing of Herbert Chapman except he died on the job. The reality is I could care less but we have to talk about something with the international break.
The game against Man City worries me. We gave up four goals. That’s un-sat. For some reason, Wenger thought it a good idea to take off both Denilson and Song. That’s when we got exposed on the break and City got three of their 4 goals. Someone has to be disciplined in defense. Even when we played Blackburn on Sunday, their second goal came when Song went forward and no one covered him. It was a fluke goal but the chance was still created when midfield left the defense exposed. All the goals we’ve conceded this year (besides set plays) have been when no one has stayed back and help out the defense.
Some don’t realize the importance of that guy that doesn’t attack every single time but can play the very unglorified role and stay behind. His value is often under-appreciated by fans most but is essential to a team with dreams of being champions. The best teams in the world need a guy that will give them that balance. It’s especially hard in a team that attacks as much as Arsenal. Fans at Arsenal didn’t realize it until Gilberto broke his back. The Galacticos didn’t realize it until Makelele was gone. That cog is essential and is not as easy to replace as it might seem.
Yes, its called playing defense first, in the mold of Winterburn, or Bould, or Lee Dixon.
That’s why they were great DEFENDERS.
City for Ribery is bunk. Hughes has already come out and said he doesn’t think City need to spend as much as they have already. He’s gotten what he has wanted.
Another striker is not what City need any way. They are still very vunerable at the back especially on set pieces.
I would say that the matches against City and United while not wins were stunning performances. During United we controlled the entire game and if not for Diaby’s idiocy at least a draw was possible. Against City even in the closing 10 minutes we threatened to score and equalize. Givens saved City that day. Yeah, we didn’t win but even in losses I look for positive takeaways. Unlike previous season where you knew Arsenal wouldn’t score – its not fair to say this wasn’t the case for these two matches. Personally, I like our chances against both these teams come the home matches.
The loss of Viera isn’t the only reason we haven’t won. Teams go through natural progressions. For Arsenal their improvement has taken longer than any fan would like. Because Arsene is intent on bringing his youngsters along. Transitions for other teams may take a season not longer. Why because they spend their way out of transitions. Other than United noone has as robust a youth system as Arsenal – for the reason that their improvement comes only from buying players rather than developing players.
Yes, I would’ve liked Arsenal to win more silverware int he last four years. But I am not blind nor stupid I can see what Wenger is trying to do. But I agree with him – if nothing comes of this season – it may need to be rethought.
You have to be joking about the ManCity match.
They came to play all match long, and beat us at our own game. It was a PISS POOR performance on our part, “stunning” only in the negative sense.
That’s absolute bullshit and you know it Stag.
If not for a Brilliant save by Givens on Van Persie the match goes to 2-1 in favour of Arsenal and it likely plays out differently.
If not for 10 minutes of us coming unhinged and unfocused the game likely is a 2-2 draw.
Your seletive memory forgets that for the last 8 minutes of the match Arsenal had no less than 6 good chances on goal.
Did we play 90 minutes of ball no. Did they no. Did we hang with them – easily. We became unfocused after the missed penalty on Adebayor and were too focused on revenge rather than playing the game. for 5 minutes after the stomp people like Bendtner and RvP are trying to take Adebayor out rather than play the bloody game.
City’s defense is woeful. Toure nearly gave the Villa match away on 3 occasions. Lescott is still getting beat going wide and on set pieces the whole lot of them are inadequate.
Get off the kool-aid.
We had chances in the last 8 minutes?
We were down 4-1?!
I know you don’t like it, its hard… but ManCity BEAT US. It wasn’t a one goal game.
“IF”… if a frog had wings…
They outplayed us.
It’s not even debatable.
Oh, and Ribery is not a striker!
He wouldn’t be for ManCity either.
My bad. I know but to my point. The SUN is reporting the transfer.
While the Mail has Ribery going to either United, Chelsea or REAL.
None of what you are reading now should be taken for anything other than pure conjecture.
True, but I would not put it past ManCity to spend crazy money to bring in Ribery.
Chelsea can’t bring anyone in at the moment, they are banned from doing so… and ManCity can outbid United.
He would be a great addition for ANY team. He’s a very good player. Again, there is no doubt about that.
I will guarantee that ManCity WILL bring in a player or two in January, and if they are in the top 4 or 5… they will do anything to improve and add to their squaud.
We won’t fold life after Wenger, but one thing I can almost see it right now – for those who started supporting Arsenal since Wenger took charge, it’d be tough for them to get used to the next manager’s playing style, whoever he is.
Cos let’s face it, not even Brazil play like us these days.
I have read some saying they wish Arsenal could play like Chelsea or other teams that – substance over style. Or defence comes first. Or to win it at all cost, never mind the football…
It’s easy to say right now. But I wonder how many will really enjoy it when their wishes come true.
My point is – IF we NEVER watched Arsene Wenger’s Arsenal for 13 years, there would be no problem. But when you are so used to this soft of high quality attacking passing football for so long, by the time Arsenal shift to a defence-oriented, or a more direct type of football, before long the reality will sink in.
Time will tell.
Andez, it is crazy talk to prefer us playing a pretty finesse style of football, INSTEAD of a winning style of football.
I wish we would address key areas that have been lacking for 3 years. We can play beautiful football AND WIN! We did it previously. The Invincibles were an absolute JOY to watch… and there is nothing wrong with defenders playing defense FIRST and SECOND!
On Arsenal.com, Wenger addresses that fact that we haven’t won anything since Vieira left. He says there is no link, but goes on to call him a perfect player for ANY set-up or system.
I disagree, there IS a link to Vieira leaving AND us not winning since. We never replaced him, nobody has come in with the same heart and toughness. Until that is addressed in some fashion, not sure we win anything. The input of Arshavin and Rosicky in recent matches shows how important a player with a bit of experience can be.
You think we play more beautiful than Brazil? I don’t think so. We have matches where we suck… against good opposition.
I am waiting for a stunning performance against a Big 5 team.
Big 5, because ManCity are as good as us and Liverpool right now, and they are talking about getting Ribery in January!
We can either CRY in our soup, or we can COMPETE by getting better.
It’s up to Arsene.
Stag there is only one PV4 but “nobody has come in with the same heart and toughness” is not true really. Flamini became the Enforcer that we needed and I believe had he stayed and performed as well as he did before we could have won something we wasn’t far off before.
I do not think it is linked either, PV4 leaving and us winning nothing, that is too simplistic. PV4 was on his way downhill in the last season he played for us. He did not have a good season even when he wasn’t injured. You might also also remember we were extremely lucky to win the FA Cup then anyway. We were totally dominated in MF despite PV4′ presence. I have not seen a ManU game in which they dominated us as much apart from the 6-1 drubbing at OT.
I believe Wenger will have regretted letting Flamini go. It is quite ironic that he let Flamini go because of the “wage structure” but he ended up conceding to Ade’ wage demands. But I suppose having already let Flamini and Hleb go he may have thought the negative impact on the squad morale to let the 30 goal striker go would have been too high a price to pay. In retrospect I think Arsene may concede letting Flamini go was also too high a price to pay.
Flamini couldn’t carry Vieira’s jock-strap!
His last season he played thru injuries, and you can say whatever you like about “how”, but we WON the FA Cup. I could care less if the win came from a deflection off a ref’s ass.
We got the trophy and medals, and the winning kick, was our Captain, Patrick Vieira.
We didn’t need Vieira on the downslide, but we never replaced him. Flamini wasn’t Vieira in any sense. No hard tackles, not a leader, didn’t stand up for our finesse players, didn’t intimidate any other team.
So, Wenger should have… and still should address the gaping hole left by Vieira.
Until he does, we won’t win shit.
Of course he isn’t Vieira, like I said there is only one PV4. Stag we cannot get a clone of PV in his prime. The mature one that romanticists like yourself are advocating that we should re-sign cannot carry Flamini’s jock strap if you want look at things that way.
The point that I was making that you have answered in such a Fred like manner is that we had an adequate replacement for Vieira in Flamini, he clearly demonstrates that he has the “heart and toughness” requirded to be our MF Enforcer, no one complained that he wasn’t good enough at the time.
Sorry, Fred I beg to differ; “No hard tackles, not a leader, didn’t stand up for our finesse players, didn’t intimidate any other team,” he did all the aforementioned. he was not a physical giant with a big reputation like Patrick but he intimidated appoonents by getting in their faces. He was always very vocal on the field and was usually one of the first players to stand by his team mates in any confrontation, definately a leader in my eyes, with a bit of loyalty he would have made a better captain than Cesc.
What Vieira has over Flamini was technical ability and physical stature. Arsene Wenger said that the Cesc Flamini partnership was the best
CM partnership he ever had when they were playing together. Flamini was more than an adequate replacement for Vieira, that is why no one was complaining about him like they are about Denilson now.
When you say Vieira was playing through injuries are you actually saying he was being played while he was injured? I doubt if that was the case though.
How we won the FA cup was only relevant because it proves that PV4 exiting was not the sole reason why we have won nothing since.
Andez, someone like Steve Bould or Dennis Bergkamp can come in and we will still play attacking football.
Two visionaries… in two completely different times/worlds.
You can’t really compare eras… Wenger is the best of this era at Arsenal. He has been nothing short of fantastic for the club.
But it doesn’t make him infallible. He is human and makes errors.
We wouldn’t be close to where we are now without Arsene’… but everyone loves to say it here, nobody is bigger than the club. Post-Arsene, we will go on as a club, we won’t fold up shop.
Let’s hope he adapts and continues for many years. Or if he continues with his madness, that he moves on and someone else comes in to begin a new era.
My reason for doing wasn’t to compare and contrast so much the overall philosophy of the two but to highlight the subtle similarities and the fact that both had signifigant impact on the club – more so than any other manager in Arsenal’s history.
Yes, Chapman had a more defencive approach than Wenger does. But that was part of the times. But both again saw the need for a quick attack and not sitting on the ball – for one.
Interestingly it is Samuel Hill-Wood who was a little less controlling as Sir Norris.
Maybe its a good thread to talk a little about Xavier Riviore’s book on Arsene and his methods. I don’t claim to know too much about Herbert Chapman – so all I know is what I read here and on the Net. But AW himself says Chapman was a revolutionary so I’m sure he has done wonders.
As for AW its interesting history IMO. Started off as an average sweeper / centre half and lost a UEFA CUP final 4-0. Every team he played for he was an average player and by 30 he was finished as a player. But all the people he worked with/under said one common thing – He was an extremely intelligent man. AW took numerous tips from people like Max Hild, Franz and others who were all great thinkers at that time. His first club wasn’t AS Nancy as many believe .. he coached Cannes for a short period before he went off to Nancy. He somehow kept them in the top flight for 3 years before they got relegated in the 3rd year.
He then moved to Monaco where he managed to lure Hoddle from Spurs by offering him more money(as he states). But later it was proved that the Marseille chairman had bribed three of Monaco’s players to underplay and that the league was fixed. This was one of the reasons Wenger left for Grampus Eight – where he did break a contract. But obviously there were reasons for this.
Eventually at Grampus Eight he worked alongside an Interpreter for a while(18 months) before he was released 4 months before his contract ended to move to Arsenal.
The rest is history.
AW contrary to how he is generally.. was prone to violent fits of rage early on and used to be physically sick when he lost games. He said his time in Japan changed all that though – he said he learnt to take control of himself in Japan. That’s why everyone who worked with him always says — “Inward he is extremely angry but it will never never translate out on to the pitch”.
Arsene took charge in a game where we were playing a German team called Borussia Mongenbledlach or something . He changed the formation at half time to a 4-4-2 and the team eventually lost. Tony Adams and company were extremely annoyed at this and confronted Arsene. He never shouted though – over time , in fact the next day itself Adams says that Wenger talked to him in detail ..only about his thoughts..what Adams felt about the team and everything about what Adams felt. And eventually won him over. Yes he used to have fights but it was always healthy.
Arsene touched everything football related – fitness, physio, grass on the pitch, gym, treatment, diets. Contrary to many people’s assumptions he does not have anything to do with “business decisions”. Yes his opinion is taken but then the board decides. The new stadium Arsene and DD both were not opposed to it but they wanted money for players to remain untouched.. but the board overruled them. Arsene wanted the new stadium ofcourse but not out of player funds. Eventually when he realized that he could no longer compete against any of the top teams .. he realized he had to switch to youth and did so. He says he will give his opinion on a new manager but will not make a decision.. he says it works best when each person does his own job.
Everyone he’s worked with has only good things to say about him. And so do I. ThankYou Arsene. Again.
IMO, the most important figures in the club’s history are:
(1) Henry Norris.
A controversial character perhaps. Yet without him, Arsenal would not have been able to play in the top flight at the first place.
(2) Herbert Chapman.
This was the manager who died on the job. Talking about dedication. If I remember correctly from what I’d read, he caught a cold (and later developed into a pneumonia) following a scouting trip, which he did not have to go, in a rainy day.
Sentimental factor aside, the man MADE Arsenal.
Arsenal won our first ever trophy – FA Cup – at the expense of Huddersfield Town, then it was a mighty force, and formerly managed by Chapman.
It’s interesting to see how a single decision (nicking away Chapman from Huddersfield) had changed two clubs’ fortune ever since.
(3) Arsene Wenger.
Arsenal’s most successful manager of all time. Period.
Chapman had a luxury Arsene never had – we were the “Bank of England” during the Chapman era. The Chelsea, Man City of yesteryears.
Chapman’s philosophy was simply – to buy the BEST talents, regardless of their ages. And DEFENCE was the priority.
A complete opposite to the WengerBall.
I wouldn’t exactly say it was bank of England. Read the advert that attracted him.
The Arsenal chairman was against big transfer expenditures. It was only after he left that he had some money to spend.
Defence was part of the equation. It was necessary, yes, but the focus was on quick attack.