Match Preview: Arsenal v AZ Alkmaar (UCL)
Champion's League Action Match Day 3 Group H
It’s the only trophy that has eluded Arsene Wenger. Europe’s biggest prize and probably the biggest prize in all Football. The group stages of the UEFA Champion’s League resume Tuesday with Arsenal travelling to DSB Stadium to faceoff against AZ Alkmaar.
Arsenal are looking to continue their Champion’s League form which has seen them take 6 points out of both matches. They currently sit 3 points ahead of Olympiakos and a win in Tuesday’s match puts them in the driver’s seat for the group. AZ Alkmaar, last years winner of the Dutch Edervesie, llook to make that not happen.
The Gunners make the trip to Holland without some key cogs missing, namely; Eduardo, Theo Walcott, Nicholas Bendtner, Tomas Rosicky, Samir Nasri, Denilson, and Johann Djourou. But Gael Clichy is set to return to the lineup. Either way there are likely to be some young additions to the squad to fill in for those in the training room.
The squad making the trip are:
Vito Mannone
Manuel Almunia
Carlos Vela
Robin van Persie
William Gallas
Bacary Sagna
Kieran Gibbs
Thomas Vermaelen
Mikael Silvestre
Gael Clichy
Andrey Arshavin
Fran Merida
Jack Wilshere
Aaron Ramsey
Cesc Fabregas
Emmanuel Eboue
Abou Diaby
Alex Song
Their opponents are in their first Champion’s League competition and are lead by manager Ronald Koeman who has a reputation for managing sides that take out English clubs from the Champion’s League. In 2006-2007 he was at the helm of PSV and in 2002-2003 he was at Ajax when Arsenal failed to proceed past the group stages.
The two clubs have never met in true competition but did face off in a friendly match which Arsenal won 3-0. AZ come into this match in opposite form to the Gunners. They’ve not won in their last five matches and in this past weekend’s tie lost to FC Twente 3-2. The have only managed four goals in their last six matches between the league and the Champion’s League. They have only taken a point from the competition so far losing to Olympiakos 1-0 and gaining a draw against Standard Liege.
The club fancy themselves a Dutch version of the EPL goal leaders. They play an attacking style and try to stay positionally sound. In addition to that they have Red jersies with white sleeves (Whoopie!!!!). The good news for AZ – no injuries from the squad and look to play with their full complement.
So far all of Arsenal’s opponents have had “an attacking style” and with the exception of the first four minutes of the Standard Liege match, the Gunners have thoroughly outplayed their competition. Even with the players on the trainer’s table the Gunners are full of options and opportunities for players to step in and step up.
Arsene Wenger is full of pride in the quality of this side and is convinced that silverware is not far from the offing for them About to turn 60 on Thursday Arsene wants nothing other than a committement to the win on Tuesday. From there he believes that this club is on the route to fulfilling it’s potential.
“I think this team has a big future. We’ve improved but haven’t won anything yet – we will try to change that this season. AZ have more of a balanced team than Standard de Liege, and are better on the ball, but it is never easy to beat a team in the Champions League. It’s never easy to beat a Dutch team either, but tomorrow is a good opportunity to do that.”
Arsenal lead the competition with 22 shots on goal. Based on current form, you can expect that the Gunners will be up for this match.
What to Expect?
Based on current form of both clubs, this looks to be an easy match up for the Gunners. But nothing is ever easy for us and with so many injured you have to wonder if this will be one of those matches that takes us 30-40 minutes before we find the net. AZ have a fairly good record at home in all UEFA competitions only losing once in 34 home games going back to 1977. It was Everton in 2007 that ended this run. However, if the match goes as open and as attacking as AZ say they will be then it clearly favors the stronger visitors. That is their style to a T and in league and UEFA competions so far they haven’t let down.
Regardless of how skilled Koeman is as a tactician he has not been able to replicate last season’s success for the Dutch side The Gunners are going to be too much for them especially if Vela and Arshavin are on the wings. That is too much speed and creativity for them to handle.
Players to Watch:
Arsenal: Robin Van Persie comes home and in great form having a goal in each of the last 6 matches. He is placing the ball in the net with precision and finese. Look for him to stand out yet again in front of his home country.
AZ Alkmaar: Beats me. Anyone watch the Dutch Edervesie and want to take a stab? The only ones I have heard of are Mendes da Silva and El Hamdaoui.
Possible Starting XI:
Arsenal: Mannone, Sagna, Gallas, Vermaelen, Clichy, Fabregas, Song, Diaby, Arshavin, Van Persie, Vela
AZ Alkmaar: Romero; Swerts, Jaliens, Moreno, Pocognoli; Holman, Mendes da Silva, Schaars, Martens, Dembele, El Hamdaou
Final Score:
Arsenal: 3
AZ Alkmaar: 0
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Yes, there are two new posts in the works so you don’t have to keep scorlling down. One will be out today and another will be out tonight/tomorrow.
Sorry for the delay in getting something new out. Still hungover from celebrating Philadelphia’s second trip to the World Series.
There’s no need to apologize DAG. You’re really doing great job.
Remember the furore over Eduardo’s dive and the subsequent accusations that it cost Celtic a place in the CL?
Guess what? In the Europa league, Celtic are yet to win a single game and have managed a grand total of ONE point from three games against mighty opposition such as Hamburg, Rapid Vienna and Hapoel Tel Aviv.
Don’t like to put clubs down, but can’t help but wonder that some people have been put in their (rightful) place. :)
Late to the discussions but interestingly I was also thinking about the concept of injuries and resting the squad and I came across the book Soccernomics by Simon Kuper and Stefan Szymanski. Has anyone read the book yet? So far, I am hooked. The book talks about using stats in the game and starts off with an example that some people (stag?) might be familiar with — Baseball and the Redsox. It talks about how the Redsox hired Bill James, who was huge into stats and things changed turned around. Interestingly, the book says a huge hero of the book’s ideas is Arsene Wenger, who is “addicted to statistics”. Although, in the next paragraph the book talks about the “Milan Lab” and how this medical outfit “found that just by studying a player’s jump, it could predict with 70 percent accuracy whether he would get injured”.
Couldn’t help think that someone needs to break into this Milan lab and give Wenger these stats :)
Anyway, the book quotes another person from the Milan lab regarding a player’s performance rate depending on how many games they play per week. The following is obvious stuff:
“what happens when a player has to play 60 tough games a year: The performance is not optimal. The risk of injury is high. We can say the risk of injury during one game, after one week’s training, is 10 percent. If you play after two days, the risk rises by 30 or 40 percent. If you are playing four or five games consecutively without the right recovery, the risk of injury is incredible. The probability of having one lesser performance is high.”
Ofcourse, I couldn’t help but think about Arsenal’s 2002 and 2004 seasons. I was always bothered by the fact that Arsenal needed their big players to keep playing every minute of the big games without any rest whereas Man Utd could rest some of their big players and still win games. In 2002, the double came for Arsenal, but a few of the French team (not only the Arsenal players) were clearly tired in the 2002 World Cup. And in 2004, Henry was clearly tired on some occasions, which I why I think his performance against Liverpool in that tough week was one of those mind over body results.
Sure there are some freak injuries that players get but there are some players who are more injury prone than others (is that a stat in itself?). Maybe this is why Wenger was annoyed that Walcott played on two fronts in the summer. Those extra games probably reduced Walcott’s fitness stats for this season.
Interestingly, been talking to a few Liverpool fans who are worried about their clubs injuries. The funny thing is without a few of their key players, Gerrard and Torres especially, Liverpool’s squad is thinner than Arsenal’s. I had a feeling they wouldn’t challenge for the title this year because last season they needed a lot of late heroics to pull things and that is something hard to do consistently.
Ofcourse, I am still waiting for the stats to turn on Man Utd because it doesn’t matter how bad they play or who is injured, they still get the results.
Argh. Anyway, I expect to see plenty of beach balls from the Man Utd fans but the probability of Man Utd getting a goal off a beach ball is remote. On the other hand, I would enjoy it if a Man Utd fan threw a beach ball and that helped Liverpool. Imagine the post match conference from Ferguson :)
If that happens, you can bet that the FA will annul the result and order a replay.
You guys are flogging this rotation idea!!! ;-)
I haven’t done the analysis but I’m guessing that CB’s in most teams play the most often, injury aside. CB’s don’t cover as much territory as other positions – so the risk of fatigue is less. In addition, CB partnerships rely hugely on their understanding.
Verme is new, so Wenger will be reluctant to break the p’ship unless it is really an issue. Djourou was likely 1st choice back-up but he’s been out injured – if he was fit I wouldn’t be surprised to see him get a game here and there. Sly and Senderos are clearly not high in the pecking order and Wenger doesn’t feel the need to play them to keep them happy.
Let’s remember, ‘resting’ a player isn’t a silver bullet. Theo has hardly played, yet he gets injured regularly and badly. Ditto Rosicky, RvP and Diaby. Nasri was rested and got injured pre-season.
You’re flogging a point that isn’t as clear-cut as you’re making out. These guys get PAID MEGA to play football. Let them play. If they get injured bring in the cover. Any benefit in reducing the risk of injury/fatigue has to be weighed against the disruption to partnerships and continuity. I’d rather have a compact squad and a few quality utility players than unnecessary duplication and a rotation policy.
Its not about injuries per se as its about key players being completely knackered in the final third of the season. Telling you dont deny that ;-)
Anybody can get injured anytime, but it is March and a player has already played 40+ games, tiredness will become a big, big factor.
Actually it has been a big factor already … even in 07/08.
As for getting paid a lot to play, there is rule in the NFL that states players should not play more than once a week.
Yeah, sure the NFL is a high impact game, but they play at most 15 minutes spread over almost 4 hours. And all padded up as well.
Sure athletes are all paid, but they are still human and the game has become very fast and sophisticated. Its not like the old days, where you can stumble from the bar to the training ground.
Lastly, you continue to misunderstand what rotation means, it does not mean wholesale change in the lineup.
For example if by Jan,Febr we have a raft of injuries up front and need to make use Vela, we would find him all atrophied, because that would probably be like his 2nd or 3rd game of the whole season. lol
When a team is like Arsenal and hasn’t won a trophy the inclination is to assess the team and each player too harshly, to set the required standard too high for every position. Teams don’t work that way. Teams are composite of parts. This means that successful teams have some players that are more prominent than others. Look at ManU – some of the players in Ferguson’s teams have been simply ‘professional’ nothing overtly flash. The point is that these guys have looked better than they otherwise might because they are in a successful team surrounded by some players of star quality.
This is where I’m less critical of the Song’s, Denilson’s and Diaby’s. If the rest of the team was functioning their position in the squad would be fine. We see this season, in a sensible formation Song is doing an excellent job. Even Diaby looks better alongside Fabregas and Song and with Verme and Gallas at the back.
We see that with Arshavin in the team, Rosicky playing more and Perse looking better the whole vibe is better. Bring back Eduardo and Nasri and t will go up a level again.
This season, Wenger addressed the defence (in his own way), the crocks have starting repaying his faith, the formation is better suited to our resources, and some of the lesser-lights have stepped up a bit, these incremental gains can tip the balance between el-flumpo and a decent shot at honours.
The key again is how do we respond to the slight disappointment at AZ. We need to dust off and get 3 points in a professional manner against West Ham. In the bigger picture AZ was a point gained toward CL progression. Let’s smack West Ham and hopefully the kids can upset the shakey Reds in the CC.
News is Eduardo, Rosicky, Bendtner and Nasri are nearing playing. Add those to Arshavin and Perse and we have a good mix to choose from. Indeed, even a little bit of competition.
Well stated.
While it is obvious that we look better and more comfortable at the back with Vermaelen in for Toure… what would happen if Gallas or Vermaelen got injured?
Why haven’t we seen anyone else? You have play other players, on occasion, or you don’t know how they will react / mesh.
It would be nice to see Vermaelen & Gallas get a match off…
They can’t possibly play the 3 matches in a week that happens over the Christmas period.
There are numerous additional problems to going with youth over experience.
At the very highest level (which we aspire to) it is so much easier for referees with only a split second at their disposal to give an internationally recognized player a call at the expense of a perfectly fine but unknown young player.
Also, players learn only from experience the need to avoid injury. Young players have to impress with each moment on the pitch and thus make foolish decisions in meaningless games that see them in the training room. Would a more experienced (less hungry?) player have stood in as Theo did with Liam Ridgewell bearing down on him in the early minutes of a game we should win easily? You would think that young players would be more resilient injury-wise, but I feel this lack of experience works against us and our supposed team depth.
Then there is the problem of attempting to retain good but relatively unproven young players with big salaries and long contracts, both to inspire their loyalty and to make other clubs less likely to swoop for them in the transfer market. Fans hate to see mediocre young players drawing big salaries and only sitting on the bench or rounding out training squads.
Despite these problems, I believe that, given our club’s long-term goals of on-field and financial success, going with a lot of youth and relatively cheap key acquisitions and sticking with (i.e., not buying immediate expensive replacements) quality players through bouts of injury, etc., we are charting a prudent course.
Absolutely agree. I firmly believe that the financial constraints Blatter wants to implement and the FA seem to be working towards – Arsenal are right now the only club that would benefit.
I highly doubt you can impose financial constraints. It would have to be world-wide, not just England, otherwise teams wouldn’t be on the same level.
Having said that, each league in Europe is different financially.
Having said THAT…
Why in the hell would the “BIG” teams with the money, in any league, want to relinquish their dominant reign and advantage?
The big teams have THE POWER. THE MONEY. THE INFLUENCE.
If they tried to impose something, that would probably be where the breakaway league would start… with the biggest teams of football joining.
So, while some sort of salary cap is good in theory, it would be extremely difficult to implement.
UEFA as the governing body European soccer has the right to impose whatever stipulations to particpating in its sponsored competions. And considering Roman Abramovich has come out in support of the financial constraints – the only two big clubs that would really be affected would be Real Madrid and Man City (your actual favourite club).
Additionally, the FA are setting up their own financial controls. Financial controls are coming.
As for the Super League – I am trying to find it but based on some concessions Blatter has made to some of his more controversial proposals it would likely kill any support for a European Super League from the EU. I will try and find that article.
The athlete playing today in many cases is selected for his strength, power, and speed.
More powerful than athletes of last decade!
The tackle on Theo:
Force applied from any side blow on the knee will lead to high percentage of injury – regardless of the athlete’s condition.
Theo maybe young, but he is fully aware he is a target for opponents who are going to come in hard (given the chance). Maybe his lack of playing time since the summer, led to his dropping his guard OR maybe he just didn’t see the force of the tackle coming.
Good point about ‘star’ players getting the benefit of the doubt (in calls) vs. other players. We see this every match.
Exactly, this is as Wenger has said today, a huge season for us. He readily admits that we need to deliver.
Which is why I’m left scratching my head when the likes of Eboue, Diaby, Song(however improved he is), and Denilson, are seen as staples of the squad.
This WILL bite us in the backside, those players cannot be at that status if Wenger wants to actually win a trophy this year. Time and time again they flunk on the big stage and I don’t see anything this year with any of them that indicates something has changed. They’re still coming out with the “we need to learn from this” line after games.
It really is a battle extraordinaire between Gallas, Nasri, Vermaelen, Fabregas, RVP, Arshavin, Rosicky against Clichy, GK’s, Denilson, Eboue, Diaby. We need to hope that good outweighs the bad on the see-saw of injuries.
As soon as the Arshavin’s of this world become outnumbered by the Diaby’s in any particular game or run of games, we’re in trouble.
Sagna, Bendtner, Walcott I see as neutrals. Not great but not terrible either. Potential to save the day but also potential to join the bad boys.
Each year, coverage of soccer/football/futbol keeps improving (if you have cable).
Despite being obsessed with Arsenal details, its a bonus to watch other leagues and make comparisons
of performances with what we relish from Arsenal and other EPL teams.
From the CL matches, on a given day, every team is vulnerable. With the monies that some clubs have
invested in remaking their rosters (Chelsea, ManCity, and Real) its encouraging to see that they
are vulnerable to the bounce of the ball.
We have great expectations from our players, but every mistake a player makes is magnified exponentially
by the players image with fans and media. For the younger players, there seems to be less patience and
added criticism.
My point:
Yesterday in the Real v. AC Milan, Casillas, GK for Real & who many rate # 1 or #2 in the world, made 2
horrific mistakes leading to 2 AC Milan goals. Lucio, CB for Inter, and usual starting CB for Brazil, had
an own goal v. Dynamo Kyiv.
We need to cut our youngsters slack and watch to see if they learn.
This is true and Mazza makes a good point below. Going with youth is an extremely contrarian approach to big time European football in that it flies in the face of the needs of the media and the fans for IMMEDIATE gratification. It always seems to me that to be a “big” club you’ve got to sign big names–it’s the only way to pacify the media and fans. If it doesn’t work out then you sign some more (and a new manager). That’s why Liverpool are a much bigger club than us….We’re taking a different tack and it’s a lonely one, but right now, I’m pretty glad I’m not a scouser….
Here’s a list of the 76 players (spending 229 million pounds in the process) that Rafa Benitez has signed for Liverpool:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1221975/Rafa-Benitezs-229m-spending-spree-The-76-players-signed-Liverpool-managers-reign.html?ITO=1490
This is a classic. 60 AW quotes on his 60th birthday. Superb!!
http://www.football365.com/story/0,17033,8750_5643990,00.html
And a quote on the current hot topic of discussion –
“For me, when you change more than three players in a team, you always take a technical risk because you change the deep structure of the team and the deep balance of the team, mentally and technically.”
Hummmmm….
So Arsene, what does this statement reflect about Arsenal squad’s depth?
Not what you wanted to hear? ;)
Le Boss pays tribute to all of us.
http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/wenger-the-biggest-lessons-i-have-learnt
“I have also learnt humility. Sometimes you think at 40 you know it all but I have found out everyone can be right in football. Someone not in the job can say something completely stupid and they can be right.”
:)
thanks for the analysis above about player starts…..
and good points about managers inclinations.
this fall, our key players can handle the 2 matches a week; but when
we arrive to December & january, it jumps to 3 matches a week…..
last few seasons, we experience loss of key players to fatigue injuries
mostly occurring in Feb, Mar, & Apr.
Against AZ, Arsene could have started Vela for Eboue & we could
“speculate” we might have seen more zip in our attack.
No clue about the veracity of this article, but it does seem like AA23 is a straight shooter (both on and off the pitch). :)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1222116/Andrey-Arshavin-Id-loved-Spurs–Arsenal-second-best-Barcelona.html?ITO=1490
AA23 at Sp*rs?!?! EWWWW.. that just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.. UGHHH. Wish I hadn’t read that.
And thank God he has astronger mentality thatn Reyes (who I kinda liked..) See if AA23 can hold out.
Just looking at the league tables from previous seasons and I noticed an interesting stat. The champions at the end of the season have always finished with the best defence, other than on 2 occasions when the best defence finished second (and the champions on both those occasions had the second best overall defence).
I highly doubt we are going to end up with the top 2 defences come the end of the season although I do still think we can win it. This will of course require doing it based on our attack which would change the trend from the previous 8 seasons. But it does make a good case for ensuring that your defence is the top priority when strengthening/assessing your squad.
Any thoughts?
This has always been the problem for us. Our attack is one of the best, but our defence tends to let us down in key games. I still remember the Chelsea and ManU games in the 07-08 season, where we took the lead but lost the games (and the title). Same year against Liverpool in the CL. Such small margins can make the difference between 1st and 2nd.
But as many have pointed, defence is neither Arsene’s forte nor his philosophy. So we will live or die by our attack. :)
Uh huh. But what also gives me hope is the lack of clean sheets this year. Of the ‘big 4,’ all of them are having defensive problems. Chelsea have described theirs as a crisis from all the reports, Liverpool defence is all over the place right now, Man Utd haven’t been their usual solid self either.
In fact, from all the games I’ve seen, the Villa Defence is the only one that seems to have an understanding with each other and even they were torn by Chelsea a few times (granted, it is Chelsea).
But maybe this is the year of the attack?
Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t.
Among the top 6, only Spurs have conceded more goals and have less clean sheets than Arsenal. And we all know that Spurs won’t be there for long. :)
In fact, Arsenal have conceded more goals this season than they did from the same number of games last season. But the attack is so much better. We have always needed 2 or more goals to win games (except Fulham). We need more results like Fulham to improve our resilience and defensive strength.
Le Boss says at the AGM that this season we WILL win a trophy.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/a/arsenal/8320807.stm
“I know that we haven’t won a trophy for four years but we were very close,” he said.
“I believe that this year the team will do it, and when I say that, it is not to please you, it is because I am really convinced of it.”
It is a BIG season for Arsenal and Arsene.
Yes. As I have said previously… and others have too, it doesn’t matter what sport either…
DEFENSE WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS!
This is why it is important to NOT play Gallas and Vermaelen to death. One gets injured, where does that leave us?
If there is nobody good enough to even play a game in their place, then we’d be F#$KED if one goes down injured.
Someone needs to tell that to Barca.
They won the Treble last season and that was with a defense that was okay at best – and I using that term based on some written reviews of the team from last year (included in Spanish and Euro press).
Sorry to butt in with more “statistics”, but Barca had the best defensive record in La Liga. :)
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/tables?league=esp.1&season=2008&seasonType=1&cc=3888
Only Sevilla came close.
Damn goes to show you can’t believe everything you read in the press.
I stand corrected.
;-)
Thus adding to the FACT, defense wins Championships!
If you do emphasize the defense, you aren’t winning.
Think of our amazing run in the Champion’s League a few years back.
We were defending all over the pitch, everyone tracking back, tough and gritty.
Didn’t we set a record for most clean sheets in that competition that season?
And if Lehmann doesn’t get sent off, who knows what happens.
But we did it with defense first.
obviously should say:
if you do NOT emphasize the defense, you aren’t winning!
The only time we have started the same 11 players in two consecutive games was right at the start of the season – Everton and Celtic. So some amount of forced rotation is taking place due to the injuries. Now let us see at players who have stayed fit and are not being rotated.
Gallas and Vermaelen have started every game. One can argue that CBs don’t need rotating. In any case, we don’t have good backup, so we have stick to this pairing.
Song has missed only one game (Pompey), where Denilson played. Now Denilson is injured. One can argue that Arsene should have bought a DM, but he hasn’t and we have to live with that.
Cesc, RvP, Diaby and Clichy have started all but two games.
Clichy can be given more rest – there are two options in his position.
Cesc can also be given some rest – Rosicky, Ramsey and now Nasri being options. But I have noticed that Arsene doesn’t like to play without Cesc, much like he never played without Henry.
Bendtner started in place of RvP in a couple of games but he is injured now. Vela, unfortunately, hasn’t started enough games.
Diaby? Arsene is clearly giving him maximum game time to prove himself (like Denilson last season). After this game, we can certainly put to rest the myth that he adds height to the squad.
I think intelligent substitution does help in the long run. ManU won at CSKA Moscow (arguably a much stronger team than Alkmaar) with a late goal and missing several key players. Even if they hadn’t, they would have got a draw (like us), but their players are rested and fresh for the key Liverpool game.
In this game, the only change Arsene could have done is play someone instead of Eboue. I don’t think he could have rested Cesc or RvP (the options were injured). I would have preferred to win this game and the next one and then rest players for the last two CL games. But, it was not meant to be.
CSKA is much further than Holland. That is why Fergie rested Evra etc . Plus there is Liverpool coming up. Nothing else.
Lets not twist things here Mazza. I am all for playing the kids ok? I even agree on all what u guys said.. blooding them slowly in etc. Playing a couple etc. No problem.
I am saying.. if for some reason we lose a game and it comes down to Olympiacos on the last day — AW will be slammed by you and everyone for not “respecting opposition” etc. 100% . Thats all. Forget about the group being easy blah blah… nothing is.. though u’d call it cliched again. The script didnt exactly predict Barca losing to RUben Kazan at home..did it? Lets forget all the hogwash about “We should qualify” – lets look at what IS in front of us.
Do you think the loss will effect Barcelona progressing?
If we need to go the the last CL day to qualify in that group, I would actually not want us to progress, as it would be a waste of time, and we wouldn’t belong in the Champions League.
If you can’t progress against Olypiakos, Standard Liege and AZ Alkmaar, WTF are you doing in a CL group?
I remember ManU getting knocked out by Lille once in the first round. Which year I dont remember – so clearly anything can happen.
As for the loss.. I’d prefer to qualify and then screw around with my side. Why risk things when you don’t need to ..right now?
There is no risk. We aren’t getting knocked out of the CL by:
Standard Liege
Olympiakos
AZ Alkmaar
If we did, we would not deserve to be playing in the Champion’s League. It’s really that simple.
Thats hardly the point. Lets drop it though.. why waste time arguing on soemthing we arent going to agree on.
@ Andez and Kiwi:
True the flogging players into the ground might have helped with going “Invincible”…..but I think we would ALL have preferred a double or even treble INSTEAD of that.
These three teams were what stood between us and a treble: Millwall in the FA cup final, Monaco and Porto in the CL.
The hallmark, the capstone of a great team is hoisting that oversized European cup … that is what cements your legacy. Its a big shame, such a great team never did. Going “invincible” is a consolation, but in the long run, it is only Arsenal fans that care about it. Infact, 10, 20 years from now it would be a bit hard explaining to younger folks why exactly we think the Arsenal Mk 2 team was really that great.
100% correct.
As I noted above (didn’t see this below)…
We only cared about going unbeaten, because we lost in the CL.
It was a nice cherry on the top, and a unique accomplishment, but the CL was the big fish…
I dont think anyone except Arsenal fans will play down their own club’s achievements as much as you guys do.. generally.. not just on this issue.
LDE, play down what acheivement?
I bark about the Invincibles more than anyone.
Has not been done in the modern era, except by Arsenal.
BUT…
I remember what happened. We SHOULD have won the CL that season.
What other accomplishments have been played down?
It is known that Wenger wants the CL Cup, he gives up the CC and FA Cup every year to give us a better chance in Champion’s League!
But its usually because we have injuries and the players are exhausted at that point, so he has to throw away those competitions!
I for one prefer the unbeaten run to another trophy (maybe not the treble). Thing about the unbeaten run is that in all likelihood, it will never again be repeated, making us completely unique.
And I don’t think people are going to forget about it either. It was a historical run and will be remembered as such.
The premiership and the cups are won every season by some club or another and as time goes on the memories of these teams become muddled. I think that’s part of why Man Utd’s treble is so great, the difficulty to accomplish it.
?!
Seriously.
It wasn’t even remotely important until we lost in the CL to Chelsea!
If given the choice to trade the FA cup for the unbeaten run that year, I wouldn’t do it. I might do it for the CL seeing as we have never won it, but I just think an accomplishment that is as hard to replicate as this is, is a big prize and should be a source of joy for all Arsenal fans equalling that of winning a trophy. But I can see and respect that I might not be speaking of all Arsenal fans when I say that.
The FA Cup is nothing anymore!
Of course I’d have done that as well.
But comparing the FA Cup to the CL, is like apples and horse-shoes.
There is no comparison, especially for Arsene Wenger.
btw Fred, did anyone credit Pat Rice during our trophy winning seasons?
based on your theory, Pat Rice is a double-winning assistant manager TWICE, to go along with an unbeaten winning assistant manager title.
What more could you ask for?
I don’t think there is anything wrong with our assistant managers or our trainers for that matter.
Yeah, the “nobody knows” defense…..
If nobody knows, then there will not be a message board anyway, and YOU will not be posting on it.
Wenger has blind spots, (though am sure you think he is a perfect god), and his assistants obviously dont help with that, because its the same every season.
—————————————————
So you have been in Arsenal dressing room huh?
Wow, sorry dude, I didn’t know.
The things I know is the things I see – action on the pitch.
“So we’re talking illusory depth here. Easy to reel off names in the mountains in Austria, a bit harder to actually use them pro-actively in games with something at stake.”
Maz, I agree 150% on what you have said. I recall expressing similar sentiments. Please ruminate at will. ;-)
And I note your positivity :-)
Perhaps one of the things that raises my optimism this season is the glimpse of improvement in the tranche of players that last season (and before) looked undercooked. This season, players like Song, Diaby and Denilson have actually done an ok job in the context of this new formation. It’s not the formation alone, I think it is also the signs that these guys are maturing. They may never be world class (or maybe one of them can be), yet if they make a god contribution that is enough.
“….if we look at it from another perspective, it might be the KEY reason we were able to make that unbeaten run.”
Good point Andez. I really do believe that a compact 1st team squad has been at the heart of Wenger’s approach. I mentioned above with the analogy to a formula one car that with our game – based on confidence, accuracy, understanding and cohesiveness – we are more reliant on players being in tune and in the groove and so Wenger tinkers less.
Other teams have a more structured game that allows 1 big centre forward to replace another or one winger another. We don’t have that luxury. That’s why when we are ‘out of tune’ the ramifications can seem extreme. Take the flump after the ManU defeat that ended are invincibles run. It seemed so totally ridiculous – why would a team allow one result to pop its balloon. I think it is the flipside to our compelling football.
The Unbeaten season was a direct consequence of getting knocked out of the Champion’s League.
Wenger would have traded the advancing past Chelsea in the CL … for losing a match in the league.
1000 times out of 1000. The Unbeaten year was nice, and unique, and unlikely to be duplicated…
but we SHOULD have won the Champion’s League that season.
We had the best team, and played it into the ground.
We were exhausted the last month, and we drew a bunch of matches late in the season, against lesser competition.
It was a special season, but we could have won the CL if we beat Chelsea.
Yes Kiwi.
Personally I am not a big fan of rotation. While it’s probably true that our over-using the fixed starting XI might have cost us the CL during our 2004 season; if we look at it from another perspective, it might be the KEY reason we were able to make that unbeaten run.
To make an unbeaten run all season, you need CONSISTENCY. And rotation does not help the cause of achieving a CONSISTENCY.
Rafa has a completely opposite style – his idea is to make sure his key players fresh towards the later part of the season. Yet he probably forgotten a fact that you gotta make sure you would still be there (in a position to win things) before resting the key players in early stage.
Either way, I don’t think there is a sure-win formula. In a sense, it’s all hindsight. If you win, everything is cool. If you lose, every decision a manager made look stupid. Despite the fact the manager probably using a same policy throughout.
The problem is that you view rotation as removing 4 to 6 players. Or the entire team.
We are talking about rotating just ONE or at the very most two against lowly teams. So that the youngsters can learn WITH the likes of Arshavin and Fabregas while still winning important games.
We are talking more Man U style rotation not Liverpool style.
I was talking about ROTATION.
Not Man U style, Liverpool style, free style, no style, Sony Style, shit style.
Rotation is rotation. What the f*ck is Man U style anyway?
Andez, we would have gladly traded in the unbeaten season, for the CL advancement against Chelsea.
And it is pretty simple. You don’t have to play 4 to 6 youngsters or non-starters in a single match, resting half the squad.
You can play Gibbs for Clichy, and Senderos for Vermaelen in one match… for example.
Rest all the players for a few matches, as opposed to when they get INJURED because they have been played into the ground.
Just a hypothesis, but we’ve seen it happen before, and we believe we have a chance with this team, and don’t want to see it fall apart because Wenger trots out all the same players over and over and over.
You said it, the CL match was not very important.
We WILL advance in this group 100% lock.
So it goes without saying that this was a perfect opportunity.
With this ‘Arsene doesn’t use rotation idea’ I think we’re developing a theory and then viewing history accordingly.
In my view Arsene does not flog his players. And there is no universally accepted manner of a rotation system. Indeed coaches/managers who use rotation often undermine their side. Other sports suffer the same dilemma, you can only retain a certain number of quality players and maintain a happy squad – and avoid financial ruin. So a manager is always in this awkward situation of balancing the need for fluency and getting results with the need not to over-use players and heighten the risk of injury or fatigue.
Let’s remember that these players are generally youngish and paid extravagantly to play football. Footballers at successful clubs have always played twice a week for significant periods. That’s what they do, that’s what they are paid for.
One of our issues has been Arsene’s conscious choice to back RvP, Rosicky and Eduardo and not to mitigate their absence for the last 2 seasons. What that did was place more pressure on the remaining players than was healthy. The purchase of Arshavin in January showed that an experienced quality option was needed. It just came too late. So I think we’ve suffered more-so in the last 2 years because of this blight of really bad long-term injuries to 3 key attacking players.
On the matter of history, let’s not forget we did have serious options to turn to, notwithstanding we prefer a compact squad. We had guys like Kanu, Wiltord, Edu Keown – all more than able of covering.
So are we flogging our boys? No. I have some concern over the adequacy of a replacement for Song but that’s not really an over-use issue, more-so for cover. As for Fabregas who some point to as a over-use risk – I’m sanguine about Nasri in his role. It’s about balance, if we have Arshavin and Rosicky we have other sources of creative threat even without Fabregas.
“On the matter of history, let’s not forget we did have serious options to turn to, notwithstanding we prefer a compact squad. We had guys like Kanu, Wiltord, Edu Keown – all more than able of covering.”
There in lies the problem though. Wenger refuses to beef up the squad with serious options and he prefers a compact squad, although having said I think our squad is quite big – it just lacks a quite a few serious options. Almost a vicious circle ;)
So we’re talking illusory depth here. Easy to reel off names in the mountains in Austria, a bit harder to actually use them pro-actively in games with something at stake.
Wenger’s actions belie his supposed faith in this sense. He only bloods them in protected circumstances, with little at stake, and the emphasis always on enjoying the game. So he’s waiting on them to develop, trying to buy time to let than happen with cup runs, but yet there’s always that crutch there to console themselves with if they fail, a sense of “its only the cup or, we weren’t expected to win that anyway”. In those circumstances, very often those youngsters will excel and give the impression ability wise that they’re ready.
A noble policy, but is it the best one to acclimatise them to the realities of the top level? With that vital, intangible competitive edge missing?
Then there are the complete extremes as well. Denilson going from sporadic, and unconvincing stand in, to first choice partner for Fabregas. And as Fred said, playing them all at the same time. Such as that chastening experience at Porto last season, which set Nicklas Bendtner back months in development after he bombed alongside players like Ramsay and Wilshere.
To make clear, there are definately things to enthuse about, and we are better than last season, but some feel the need to do the narrative routine because we feel there is something legimate to ruminate on in that sense ;)
I saw Liverpool fans been calling the head of Rafa. I think it’s insane.
As usual, those smart asses got all the questions yet with no answer.
Assumed that Rafa is sacked, who’s gonna take over the new manager role “midway in a season”?
The best managers all have their own club to manage. Those currently jobless if they were better than Rafa they wouldn’t have been jobless.
Everybody knows Liverpool’s bank account is empty. Rafa just got a new deal and if he’s to get sacked Liverpool would need to pay him off 12 mil.
meaning that whoever takes over the job would rest for sure he’s gonna get nothing to spend. might as well save that 12 mil for a new player in January.
Liverpool’s problem IMO is their owners. What kind of an owner would come out and attack their own manager publicly?
I have learned lately Stan K. has gradually increasing his stakes at Arsenal. And apparently he still hasn’t paid off the money (the shares he bought from our other owners) he owed.
I really hope that Stan K. won’t end up repeating what Liverpool’s American owners did to Liverpool, by borrowing money to buy the club then put the loan debt into the club. If that’s the case we might as well have that Ukraine guy as our owner, at least he got CASH.
Andez, I think you are against sacking managers period.
Liverpool’s season is going down the shitter, sometimes a change at manager can be a positive and motivating factor for a team.
4 losses in a row and ManU coming up on the weekend.
Not sure if I would fire him now, but I would definitely think about it. They still have time to salvage the season, if the team loses faith in the manager and/or quits on him… there is too much money to lose but falling out of the top 4.
You have to try something. You can’t always fiddle while watching Rome burn.
As for the assistant manager talk. Let’s GET REAL here – the truth is NOBODY KNOWS anything behind the scene.
Anyone ever been to Arsenal training ground? Anyone ever been to Arsenal dressing room?
No?
Rest my case.
Yeah, the “nobody knows” defense…..
If nobody knows, then there will not be a message board anyway, and YOU will not be posting on it.
Wenger has blind spots, (though am sure you think he is a perfect god), and his assistants obviously dont help with that, because its the same every season.
Look at the bright side – If we are going to concede a late equalizer, I would much perfer it’s in a CL group match. Cos let’s face it, it matters little. No chance we would fail to qualify anyway.
Yet it’s a good lesson for the team to learn, as AW put it – gotta stay focused for 94 minutes.
Had that happened in a league match, it would’ve cost us dearly.
My major issue is why must we rest our players ALL at the same time????
How come Vela only ever starts when the whole second team is playing?
Why cant just one or two at most be rested? Why must it be either the WHOLE first team or the WHOLE second team???
For example why couldnt we play Ramsey for Diaby and Senderos for Vermalaen in this AZ game and in the next game, switch Song for Coquelin and Gibbs for Clichy, while returning Diaby and Vermalaen.
We are killing some of these players and the tasking winter has not even arrived yet. Song will even play in the winter and go play in Africa as well. Imagine in what condition he will be in when he comes back in February.
Man U’s style is the best, in almost every “non-big” match they rest one or two players, you know blood in Welbeck and the others WITH THE FIRST TEAM. The result, in March, April, they are as active as kids who have too much sugar, while we can hardly run.
Makes one wonder though, it is possible the Invincibles never the CL or back to back titles because AW pretty much ALWAYS started the same 11.
I remember that Henry hardly ever got subbed, even when the team was leading 3-0….he stayed on the pitch the whole 90 minutes.
So by March/April after playing 50 games for the club and another 10 for their NTs, they might have found it hard to really step up in the CL final stages as they are physically and mentally shot.
Infact, how on earth was the team to win back-to-back titles when the exact same 11 players have been playing almost non-stop for almost 2 seasons.
No matter how talented Rosicky, Fabregas, AA and co are, if they are knackered by February, we are done for.
———————-
PS:
I agree about the assistant coaches. There doesnt seem to be any at the club who can give us specialized solutions and help correct AWs blind spots.
They are seem like a bunch of wussy yes men.
Not exactly. AW pretty much rest Titi in the FA Cup ties.
And I recall he used to hand Titi a 2 week “holiday” midway of the season (usually during the build up to a FA Cup tie)just to keep him fresh.
I remember that cos I used to think he’s out of the mind to leave Henry out for a big FA Cup game Vs Chelsea or something.
But he did.
That was ONE game in February. He was already well knackered by then.
Before then he had already played 90 minutes in over 35 games.
I distinctly remember how exhausted our team was when we lost to Chelsea in the CL, and then had Liverpool in the league a few days later. We needed a miraculous display to win that game.
We were complaining about fatigue… just like we will later on this year.
Agree with Fred that you can easily rotate a few players into matches, without much difficulty.
It is not even debatable.
An away draw in the CL is not a bad result by itself, but when you concede an injury time equalizer in a manner which most Gunners know and fear as our main weakness, well, it is very disappointing.
Still it should affect our progression from the group. If we won, we could have wrapped up qualification (and maybe even top place) by the next game (12 points). But now, we need two games (both are at home, so should not be a problem). The only trouble is that the top spot may go all the way to the last game (if Olympiakos win their two) and that game is away to Olympiakos.
The main reason to win this game (and the next one) was so that we can rest players in the last two CL games. Now we probably can’t, that is the biggest downside, from what I can see.
I agree that some of our guys need a rest but you have to respect two things:
First, of the players we have available, who’s going to play in place of van Persie or Song? For van Persie, we have Bendtner, Eduardo, and Walcott all out injured. Robin has got to play! For Song, we have Denilson and kinda have Nasri who are also injured. Other than those players, I’ve only seen Senderos play that position for Arsenal. Song has got to play!
Second, this game was bigger than many are making it out to be. AZ are in the CL because they have a good team. An away tie, when you haven’t settled your qualification into the next round yet, is not a fixture where you want to blood the youngsters. I would have looked to earn the three points last night like Wenger did. Had we won last night, we’d be on nine points and it would take a miracle for us to not advance. Only then, and in front of the Emirates crowd, would I give the young guns a run out. As it worked out, we failed to win even with a strong team. You’ve got to respect the opposition. These teams aren’t in the CL because they won some lottery.
If you look at our upcoming schedule, it makes sense what Wenger did. We have five days off until our next game. Then we have a Carling Cup tie where the young guys would play; meaning 6 more days off. Then, had we won last night, we could rest a few more players for the AZ return leg at the Emirates, resting resting one or 2 others for the Spurs match. There is plenty of time coming up to get guys a break.
Our injuries are all in the same position. Nasri and Denilson were regulars last year but injured meaning Cesc, Song, and Diaby have had to do all the work. Our regular keepers from last year have both been out injured. All of our strikers have been out except for Robin, meaning he’s being flogged. Despite all of that, we’re still in a good position. As we get guys fit again, they’ll all get breaks.
Lastly, what’s up with Fabregas pulling his shirt up and, seemingly, rubbing his nipple after he scored his goal? My wife asked me if it was appropriate for athletes to do that in public. I didn’t know what to tell her.
Josh…..
you are right about the importance of AZ match…..but if Aresenal wanted a more dangerous attacking side, I would have started Vela over Eboue (every time) – younger, more rested than Eboue and far more attacking options with his skills.
Josh, seriously… there is NO CHANCE of us not advancing in this group.
ZERO.
We have 7 points, lead the group and 1 win in the next 3 matches in the CL guarantees us passage to the Knockout stage.
If we can’t rest RVP or Song, what exactly happens if/when they get injured?
We play with 10 or 9 men?
No, of course not.
We have options, and it doesn’t mean we can’t compete without Song, RVP, Vermaelen and Gallas playing every single match.
If thats the case, then we have a serious problem with depth and squad size.
That is opinion Stag as you say. If we’d played the kids and lost you’d sing another tune. Either way mathematically even if we’d won we’d need to win MatchDay 4 to ensure we went through. After that play the kids. Not MatchDay 3. If AW played the kids and we lost he’d be savaged here for being an idiot and killing momentum and the run and losing confidence and how he should be sacked. You know this as well as I do.
Well, no we wouldn’t of. That’s a lazy myth, and no one would be stupid enough to contradict themselves when their comments encouraging such actions are on the previous thread.
We played our first teamers and killed momentum anyway. So lose lose.
That’s the thing ; if you play first teamers too often they begin to coast, begin to pace themselves. When those players are Diaby and Eboue, your in grave danger of dropping points.
I’m sure a Wilshere or a Ramsay could have played yesterday and we still could have gotten a point at Alkmaar.
Fergie bloods his youngsters in games with something at stake, and as such they cultivate a winning mentality and can rise to the occasion. On the contrary our youngsters only play when there is barely anything at stake and nothing is expected of them, and then we wonder why they collapse and look ‘naive’ when they play in pressure games with tangible reward at stake.
United youngsters know Fergie trusts thems. Our youngsters know Wenger will only play them in a big game as a very last resort. Not exactly confidence boosting.
This is correct. If we can’t have managed the same draw with a few youngsters in the line-up, what does that say about our team?
We played ALL regulars, and still drew.
Why not show the confidence in Merida, Ramsey, Wilshire, Gibbs?
If we lost, who CARES!!?!!!
There is NO CHANCE we will not progress in this group.
Just as David Dein and now Gazidis have been and are assets for Arsene, there is something
amiss in the Arsenal coaching staff.
Maybe they are afraid to confront Arsene’s decisions OR understand intellectually how
to influence his decisions.
As lowly fans, we rant about these same set of concerns,
– experienced back up in defense
– 2 solid goal keepers
– back up for Song
– is Nasri the back up for Cesc?
– smarter starts for our key players
– working on set plays / defensively
– working on FK’s / offensively
– when do the young players receive playing time supported by our key players.
For me, if Arsene had strong assistant(s), we would be seeing solutions to some or
all of the above issues. Assistants should bring specialized expertise to the team.
Having a strategy that giving up a goal or two is acceptable, as your match strategy is to outscore your
opponents is intellectually dishonest and whimsical.
Was not all of this on the front burner of discussion last season?
Ironically I think every player you mentioned guys has been spelled even at this early stage of the season. Diaby hasn’t been constant. RvP’s schedule is carefully watched and frankly the guy needs game-time after all the time-off he has had over the last 4 years. All the FB’s have been in/out. Song has had time out. Arshavin has been out. Rosicky is being nutured carefully. Fabregas has had 2 EPL games off and didn’t play the last international for Spain (nor the CC). The only guys to be almost constant have been Gallas and Verme….and CB is hardly a high mileage position. Indeed most teams stick with their duo. And ours need game-time to gel and form a defensive understanding.
So I don’t think anyone is being overworked at this stage. We do pick up a lot of injuries – alas most haven’t been due to over-use.
Kiwi……
who has subbed for Song and Cesc?
not sure I agree with your observation about RvP. what do the last seasons have to do with fatigue now? I agree he needs matches, but he is starting every match for last month and this type starting every match historically leads to injuries for him.
Stag is right about Wenger playing players into submission.
Nothing annoys me more than seeing Eboue and Sagna in the same freaking line up. The idea of Eboue in the top 3 of a 4-3-3 is a dirty pervesion.
I really wish we had sold the guy in the summer. Vela cant get any minutes whatsoever because of the guy. Ridiculous.
Every match where the line up has Eboue infront of Sagna – the team
struggles ‘defensively’ and ‘offensively’.
With this system, our outside backs are not a factor in our attacks. The teammate in front of Sagna & Clichy, is usually too embedded in attack and is unable
to track back and assist in defense.
So Sagna and Clichy are confronted with the risk in going forward.
Stevo, obviously someone has had a word in Diaby’s ear and suggested he play a greater defensive role in the box with his height……alas, as you say being tall doesn’t necessarily make one a defensive giant. Hopefully Diaby won’t attract Clichy’s penchant for calamity.
Stag the concept of rotation is a good one in theory but the issue is whether it works in practice. I suggest we have seen over the years that rotation at Arsenal under Wenger has more downside risk than positive impact. The Arsenal 1st team is like a formula one engine, finely tuned. It doesn’t take kindly to tinkering.
Let’s also remember Arsene does spell some guys a little, firstly by not playing core 1st team players in the CC they get a spell and then guys at particular risk like RvP and Rosicky are clearly played with some care.
I would rather he continued his current philosophy, avoided ‘rotation’, and rest players when they really need it due to lost form or fatigue, or…….rest them when they get injured. I’m sorry, but I think this rotation thing is a nonsense.
I strongly disagree.
Nobody is saying AW should rest 3 or 4 guys….we are talking 1 or 2 at most.
For example, what is wrong with starting your first team and resting only Diaby? Or only RvP or Clichy or even Fabregas?
Flogging players into the ground especially for a stupid game in the CL group stage is ridiculous.
The non-rotation will have a serious effect on us in the second half of the season when we would have record injuries and tiredness while Chelsea and Man U will be playing like young puppies on red bull.
Fred – you hit the target about subbing.
The younger players won’t develop surrounded by similar
experience around them.
1 or 2 youth insertions will not impact our style.
Kiwi, its hardly non-sense… with the number of games played in all competitions, the harsh Winter in which the EPL play, and the physical style of play in the EPL, it is definitely a factor and has been for years.
You perhaps believe that the injuries we have suffered the past few seasons are just don’t to dumb luck?
I attribute “some” of it to Wenger playing key players into the ground.
He even did it in successful seasons.
He has blamed fatigue in the past!
You are most def entitled to your opinion, but you simply can not trot out the same team with the league, CL, and Cups.
If we lose Song or Cesc … there is simply no replacement.
And we gained nothing today from playing all the same guys.
Time will tell. It always does!
Not too dissapointed with a draw.
We didn’t play well, and didn’t deserve a win, but when you have
the lead that late, and lose it, its POOR.
Should have gotten 3 points, and failed.
But this group is too easy.
On the NEGATIVE side is … Wenger started all the Usual Suspects.
Not sure how its a good thing (as I read above somewhere) that we are playing the same players over and over and over.
This is why we get injuries more often than other teams (one of the reasons) and this is why players look “spent” and fatigued.
It should not happen.
Is it a lack of depth? Wenger doesn’t trust is wonder-youth brigade in a fairly meaningless match against AZ Alkmaar?
Puzzles me.
So will he actually trot out the same group again versus WetSham?
Moving on.
Stag – exactly right.
WENGER’S hype for building a youth base and develop a team through the academy system seems to be just a SPIN.
ARSENAL ASSET players: Arshavin, Rosicky, RvP, Eduardo, Vermaelen, Gallas, Sagna,
Nasri – ACADEMY GRADUATES? Cesc is the only exception.
All of this talk about missing Rosicky – diverts us from the real issue. We had
sufficient talent on the pitch to easily win. As pointed out above, some of these
players are just OVER PLAYED: RvP, Arshavin, Cesc, Vermaelen, Gallas, Song.
So in what level of matches do you give Vela, Ramsey, Wilshere, Merida, etc…….starting experience?
Maybe we should point at the Arsenal coaching staff; as this pattern of limited
rotation is a ground hog day scenario.
I agree JD. People feel the need to build a narrative – to encapsulate a game or a season or whatever in a few simple lines or even better in a few words. It’s easy that way. Yet things are rarely that simple – particularly in a team game situation.
That said, I often feel we are very vulnerable when the game is in the latter stages and we have a slender lead. Inevitably Arsene makes defensive substitutions that weaken our ability to retaliate if we lose our winning lead. Take today, RvP off for Vela. Nothing wrong with that on the face of it, yet Vela looked lightweight which isn’t surprising given his almost complete lack of gametime this season (and last). That change left us even further under the cosh, we had almost no effective attacking outlets not to mention the imbalanced midfield. So AZ increased the attacking pressure. And we in turn were even less able to respond in kind.
The timing of their goal sunk us, it was perfect. We had no time to respond at all.
What is good this season, is that when we do field a better balance, we are more direct and the team looks more cohesive. Last season there seemed to be a fatal disconnect. The front 6 had two central characters Adebayor and Fabregas. Yet the players around them simply didn’t mesh and make it work. So we had a team where the build-up and tempo was dominated by Fabregas alone meaning it was very slow, too slow to offer Adebayor anything. Fabregas had almost no one with the requisite ability to support him. He also had a greater defensive role. Adebayor was at the apex of a slow moving team and it drove him nuts and drove Mazza nuts watching him go off-side.
This season, Arshavin and Rosicky have the smarts to compliment Fabregas. Critically both Arshavin and Rosicky have a directness to their play being both creators and scorers of goals meaning opposition teams don’t get the time to ‘park the bus’. We are more dynamic. These nuances are critical.
Totally agree about how critical Rosicky is in complementing Cesc. Our success this season is heavily dependent on the health/output of those three. Above you say we can’t just slot in people into roles they can’t fulfill (Eboue as right forward? or was it Diaby?) so I would have preferred to have seen Vela from the start, or have him come in for one of those two (Eboue/Diaby) and Wilshere would have been fine as well. However, I thought Vela did fine and should have won a (game winning) penalty when he was scythed down in the box. Perhaps he made too much of it and the “Eduardo effect” lingers? In fact, with the blue shirts going, I found myself mistaking him for Cesc a couple of times after the Captain went quiet late in the match.
Overall I didn’t think we did too badly but I think it’s time to move on from the Mannone experiment. The boy was rooted to his line on many of those late set/plays long balls and I sense there’s little talking with his back line, plus the kicks and distribution were woeful and were a big factor in AZ having all the possession (as I think someone mentioned above). I liked their keeper, however….
Likewise, if we’re keeping Diaby in for his height I think we’re falling for a false logic–he’s a serious goal scoring threat at set pieces…for the wrong team! The current formation gives him enormous freedom and I just think some others could really thrive given the same opportunity.
I dissed Koeman earlier but he got his tactics spot-on today. After about twenty minutes you could see that his plan was, simply, to keep the ball. If they have the ball, that means Arsenal aren’t attacking. It didn’t matter if they actually attacked the Arsenal goal, just keep the ball. If they could do that well, and string a few easy passes together, their belief would grow. Then, in the last few minutes, look for a goal.
This approach worked well for AZ tonight and earned them a point against a better team. If not for a bad touch by one of the defenders, they might have claimed all three points. So, I obviously disagreed with the Setanta commentary about how dominant we were. However, I’ve gotta hold my hand up and say that I got Koeman wrong. Well, not necessarily. He still can’t manage a team worth a damn, but he got the tactics for tonights game on the money. We should expect the same in the return leg.
Agree on their tactics. And they did keep the ball pretty well. Although I’d like to think that had we been level going into the break we would have been able to turn it up a notch. Or is that me overestimating us?
You never know. Goals change games. So many saw our destruction of Blackburn a few weeks ago as their only being one winner. I don’t agree. If Blackburn had been awarded a penalty for Vermaelen’s foul on Dunn, they may have decided that three goals was quite enough for anyone to score at the Emirates and parked the bus. With them needing a goal, they had to come out and we ran up the score. You simply never know. Goals truly change games.
Most DEFINITELY… on the goals change games theory.
If Blackburn scored via the penalty, then who knows what would have happened.
Early days perhaps to right off Liverpool in the EPL. True, they have had a disappointing start, yet points-wise they are not out of it. As I said recently, the top teams are winning and losing not drawing…..so it means they are still acquiring points and things are tight up top accordingly. In addition, no one has got off to a flyer. Of the ‘top 4’ teams, Arsenal have probably ‘got in to’ the season best of all.
I dislike Liverpool under Benny. He is not a manager in keeping with their tradition. In practice, he tinkers too much. He claims he hasn’t got the resources of the others – yet he spends plenty.
Still early days, but nice to see someone else attracting the focus of the media who circle keenly looking for a sensation to write up.
We just need to stay below the radar, accumulate points, get our injured players back. Let Rosicky and Dudu rehabilitate on-field. Get the formation bedded down with Perse at the apex and be in position to challenge come ‘the clutch’.
Liverpool haven’t got a chance in hell of winning the title. I’m writing them off.
I wrote on Phil Thommson’s Sky blog yesterday that Benitez has totally goat-screwed that team. He’s bought (overpaid) for his Torres, Mascheranos and Babels while getting rid of his Keanes and even got rid of Rick Parry. He can’t say that he has no support because he’s bought more players in the past four years than any other manager.
His problem is he buys these foreign players who can’t speak English and doesn’t give them time to learn the language, gel with teammates, and adapt to the league before he moves them on. We’ve talked about Rafa bringing in too many players at once for years and now we’re seeing the fruit of his foolish endeavor. Their demise is all his fault.
They’re not out of it. They’re only 7 points behind the leaders.
That said, I’m not convinced by them.
I forgot to mention, the reason they are so weak is they lost their holding player, Xabi Alonso. It’s the most unglorious position on the field but essential to anyone who wants to win. We saw it when the invincibles lost Gilberto. The galacticos saw it when they lost Makelele. Even Chelsea, who looked invincible a short while ago, have lost Mikel Obi. The result; Chelsea went from being perfect to losing two of their 3 games since Mikel’s injury.
When we lost Flamini, we had to blood Denilson and Song. Fortunately for us, they learned fairly quickly; Denilson a bit quicker than Song. If Liverpool hope to keep their top four status, Lucas has got to learn as quick as Denilson did or they can kiss the top four goodbye. Their CBs simply aren’t good enough to hold it together.
Oh – I am thinking of titling my match review “Different Day Same Old Shit!”
That was probably the most uninspiring performance of the season. Whether it was because they weren’t in to it or they were saving themselves, they never put them away and paid for it.
I expect Almunia to get back into goal this Sunday solely on the fact that it looks like the Champion’s League is spooking Don Vito.
And on another note: Nasri and Fabianski started in the reserve match today.
From Arsenal.com – “Both emerged unscathed from their long-awaited comebacks and Nasri even produced a perfect pass to set up the opening goal for Gilles Sunu.”
Good news there and glad that the “emergency at the house” appears well in hand…..
And where are the haters/doomers/realists? Don’t we need someone to declare that Alkmar is our Waterloo, the point where our season will certainly head South. Or at least SOMEONE to get in about our FORMATION beyond the wise words of our Antipodean (Kiwi). Indeed I would have preferred to see Vela in from the get go rather than Eboue trying to be an attacker. Both he and Diaby TRY to make runs off the shoulder of the defenders but it looks like a training ground effort: no real desire to get a pass and then be faced with a one on one with their keeper (can we buy him? how much?).
And fair play to pasty Ron Koeman who said they needed to dominate possession, which they did, and they got a result (the same one PSV got 3 yrs ago at the Emirates to knock us out.)
So, given my perpetually upbeat take on things I hope we take this as a lesson learned, that we can’t let up with a one goal lead, that Diaby may be tall but he’s no answer defensively when the ball’s in the air, that we need to play until the final whistle, etc, etc.
OFF TOPIC:
FIFA 10 is out in the US today, and I’m about to take off the plastic. If anyone on here is on XBL and wants to get into some non-cheese matches, my tag is Gooner011.
And if anyone is FIFA10 PC player I am on as YAMA DAG
Just popped it in…Rooney? Aw, come on.
Whilst Arsene has to take the criticism over his handling of last season, which I rate his worst, so he has to take credit for the positivity that is now reappearing. His stubborn loyalty to Robin, Thomas and Dudu may prove a master-stroke. True, we paid the price of a turgid 2008/2009 season, but if those 3 reintegrate and deliver this season it could truly be the makings of a new era. The depth of gratitude that those 3 should feel should know no bounds.
It’s Arsene’s way or no way, so let’s hope that we can maintain the momentum. 4 points from West Ham & Spurs would see us enter November in good shape which as you say Mazza is a month where we have lost our way recently. We also need a decent show in the CC – we simply aren’t robust enough to withstand humiliation – even from our B team.
November’s games look ok – in fact quite light. Ending with a toughie against Chelsea – albeit at the Emirates. If we can stay in the leading pack through November we should start to get some more players back and integrated to take on the massive Dec/Jan period with games coming ridiculously thick and fast in the bleak winter. Dec/Jan sees 16 games in 2 months – yikes.
I also noticed the number of fouls Song ‘attracted’ and won. He is such a strong ox that the opposition often have to resort to fouling him to stop him. Being an unflappable character he gets up and chugs along. Contrast Fabregas, being a lighter chappy he relies on his technique to release the ball quickly to avoid a challenge, yet today he was dispossessed a bit with the physical use of a good keen shoulder.
Hear ye hear ye…..
That uber-mega-club FK Rubin Kazan have downed the mighty Barcelona!!! Everybody has off days ;-)
Kiwi, didn’t Rubin draw with Inter (earlier)?
You’re right, I see they did.
And to make me even happier – Liverpool won’t win the league and they won’t get out of the group stages of the CL.
Did I mention I hate Liverpool?
Song can get injured on the eve of the ACoN ;-)
I think the answer has two parts, firstly, Arsene has always played a tight core of players game after game, and secondly, we are currently carrying a lot of injuries (sound familiar!!) so he has few serious options. Momentum is too important for this young side so he’s backed into a corner of needing to keep the positive results coming with fewer playing options to choose from. Eduardo, Bendtner, Rosicky, Nasri, Walcott and Denilson is a lot of unavailable talent.
He would have spelled a couple of players if some of the injured had been available. Incidently, I like him playing the same team. We’ve never been convincing with chopping and changing.
With Perse, Arsene tries not to pay him more than once a week. Whne he does, he will normally be subbed late to reduce the risk of injury – like today.
I always find this part of the season interesting. – how Arsene uses the squad.
I think it bares a strong correlation to how we fare in the latter part of the season and our physical/mental state.
We’re the masters of popping our own momentum balloon with cheap giveaways at this time of year so how we do in the next few weeks is going to be of great interest.
Will Arsene rest Fabregas, or Song? If he doesn’t, especially with Song, does that indicate he’s not happy with the options in reserve? If so, why didn’t he bring in someone in the summer?
It’s just these little things that grow into the bigger things, like a domino effect, that disturb our serenity every season, and I find it always can be largely traced back to transfer decisions and squad decisions made in Oct/Nov.
Oh so predictable.
Stag is 100 per cent right. Why does Arsene keep playing the same team over and over again? He never does pro-active squad rotation when there is something at stake, it’s always when a players(s) get injured that he is forced to use his squad. Reactional squad rotation I call it.
Remember two years ago Fabregas got injured playing against Seville after Wenger wouldn’t rest him and then he blamed the media for it?
Can see the same thing happening with Song and Fabregas this season, as well as RVP. Those three are gonna get injured because they get trotted out week after week, twice a week even.
Be interesting to see how we cope physically at Upton Park.
In the context of the CL campaign this away draw is absolutely fine. Whilst early qualification sounds good, it may not be a bad thing to need to concentrate on the remaining fixtures. We don’t have the luxury of a mature squad that can turn on and off as required.
That said…..
The manner of the ‘last minute’ draw is a tad disappointing. We have a reputation in recent years of giving away results and we need this team to lose that quickly. We’re getting better though.
During the match itself it was apparent that we were chasing AZ rather than the opposite which most would have been expected. They played a better possession game than us and when we did manage to nick the ball we often gave it away quickly or found ourselves under a lot of pressure. We had the best (half) chances yet they bossed the game more. We looked jaded – maybe we were.
I thought Song was immense. He literally held the midfield together and stopped AZ’s dominance turning into clear chances. Fabregas, goal apart, had a stinker. He strolled around in a manner that would see Diaby lynched. His passing was very poor by anybodies standards. Maybe he missed Rosicky even more than I expected. It reaffirms that players aren’t machines, even the most consistent have off days/periods.
Whilst credit must go to AZ, what we might be seeing again is the need for this formation to have the right balance. Eboue didn’t play badly yet he’s not Rosicky. So effectively we’re playing with 3 CM’s and a FB in the front 6. George Graham used to do that (Schwarz, Selley, Hillier, Morrow). Hardly inspiring. Hardly surprising that the AZ box often looked barren of Arsenal attackers – cause we only had 2 – RvP and Arshavin!! I thought Perse and Arshavin did fine in the circumstances. You can’t just stick whoever in this formation and think it will work. We almost got away with it, another minute no less and we would have! Yet truth is we paid a price for putting out a limited attacking line-up. On another day we could pay a higher price. Wilshere should have started over Eboue.
Clichy again looked on the fringe of calamity. Song bailed him out too. I had to laugh when Diaby almost headed into the net – yikes, no doubt Arsene will allow him to work that out!? ;-)
Anyway, not to worry, we got the result we needed.
Thanks Kiwi for your detailed remarks. As I only saw most of the match from an internet stream and the size of the screen limited identifying anyone.
So right about Cesc – got his goal & then we played a man down.
We are a small line up. All of these high balls we kept heading back up field, as if our short teammates are expected to win the 50/50 aerial ball. The same for Mannone’s distribution – all of his GK’s & punts, just gave them possession.
Wenger was out coached. Far less talented club, and they only way for them to salvage points was rely on Arsenal to make a mistake.
re: Diaby’s (almost) shoulder goal
I did notice the “look” that Song gave him just after the ball cleared the cross bar.
The combination of Eboue and Sagna has never looked threatening nor is their chemistry in overlapping.
RvP, Arshavin, and Cesc – all look ‘spent’.
Diaby made a terrific cross with his left foot to RvP (early on); how many touches does RvP need to slam his shot into the GK? He had another unmarked shot in the 1st half – just about took the keeper’s head off.
Maybe it was the small size of my screen; Could anyone see if the keeper had a target embroidered on his jersey – and above it read,
———–Robin – dare you to hit the bullseye——————–
On last question Kiwi, who gave up the FK that led to the goal? Was it offsides
or a foul?
Not a free kick. It was a hopeful long ball, route 1 style, the big Italian Pelle headed it down in the box and another geezer whacked it home.
From what I read this morning (still haven’t see the match on a regular TV) – Arshavin was called for offsides.
Just looking at their goal replay:
Diaby COMPLETELY mistimes his jump. Song let the scorer run right past him watching Diaby get dominated (though he was decent for the rest of the game). And it might be hard to accept, seeing as they created so little throughout the 90, but hopefully the team will learn that even if they haven’t created anything, it just takes a moment’s loss of focus.
I was happy to see Vela come on, but I wish he’d come on for Arshavin instead. I think we would have been able to retain possession better with VP.
They played with INDIFFERENCE, so a draw is a fair result.
It serves very little purpose to evaluate any PLAYER FOR FAULT…….this was a TEAM
EFFORT OF FAULT.
Agreed that a draw was fair seeing how half-hearted the effort we put in was. It still doesn’t change that it was a momentary lapse in concentration that cost us.
We had been warned by an earlier set piece as well. Other than that I don’t remember them creating much. Song esp. cleaned up really well.
We’re not going to win every game we deserve to. It would be nice if we could focus and hold on to wins that we don’t fully deserve.
It would have been a big help to the squad to get the 9 points and put this group away, thus allowing our important players to rest. Oh well…
Arsenal deserves the draw!
Let them hang around long enough and…
The first half reminded me of watching paste dry.
Truly, this is the kind of match that non-fans think every match is like.
Please, just get the second goal and put it to bed, before you put us all to sleep.
Game Day Chat will be open
http://www.youaremyarsenal.com/gamedaychat
Please note I will be in there but away from the computer picking up my son. So stick around others will join.
Lets hope we have a comfortable win…….allowing Arshavin and Cesc to be rested in the 2nd half.
No injuries & 3 points.
Not too impressed with Koeman’s track record as of late. He almost got Valencia relegated last year with his “good ideas” and now he’s screwing up AZ, who have been a top club in Holland for the past five years.
We should throw them a clinical 0-4 beating but this young team doesn’t go all out and destroy teams in Europe yet. We’ll see how we do tonight.
With regards to Almunia, Wenger has done this with keepers on several occasions. I remember the season where Lehman started off very poorly and making all kinds of crazy decisions. At some point AW had enough and Jens was pulled after supposedly contracting some mysterious disease/injury. He was left out of the side for several weeks, and when he eventually returned he was motivated and played phenomenally well.
AW is using the same tactic today. Eventually, he will find a reason to get Almunia back on the pitch, and hopefully, the Spaniard will be refocused/reinvigorated.
Once again, agreed.
Also agree, but I hope Mannone raises his game and does not give Wenger a reason to return to Almunia!
Lineup is announced:
Starting XI: Arsenal: Mannone Sagna Gallas Vermaelen Clichy Song Cesc Diaby Eboue van Persie Arshavin
Subs: Almunia Vela Ramsey Sylvestre Wilshere Gibbs Merida
I look forward to watching the match today, but I think we should
really rotate players in this match. Almunia to start… let kids play in this one: Merida, Vela, Wilshire, Ramsey… ALL should get some time in this match.
If we drop a point, or even lose… so what.
We are definitely going to qualify from this group of mediocrity.
AZ Alk have been poor this season, blew a 1-0 against Standard Liege in injury time, and don’t play a close up the shop style.
I would play this as a glorified FA Cup match, and ring in the changes.
2-1 Arsenal.
Please Arsene, do not play key players into the ground.
I also want to see young players get a chance, but you’ve got to secure passage before you start messing with the lineup too much. Let them play the last couple games of the groups stage, assuming we qualify early.
Agreed, 100%. Their time will come.
So, So Right!
Yes, it will come when we have no choice because f’n Wenger keeps trotting out the same f’n team over and over.
Jeeezus Christo.
Many of the players came back from International duty… played Saturday… and now Tuesday.
Come January we’ll have about 6 guys injured or exhausted at this rate.
Whoever plays in goal needs to do well there. Frankly I’m shocked that it’s gone down as it has, as Vito has had the one good game, only, in my opinion. It seems just unbelievable that Almunia could be dropped so easily, though he certainly didn’t cover himself in glory early season and could be blamed for some points dropped in the Manchester matches. I was of the opinion he got a new contract over the summer, which would make it that much harder to fathom. Nonetheless I just don’t see Vito doing the job in the bigger matches. Is he keeping the position warm for Fabianski who will take over as the new #1? At this point we as fans just don’t have enough info to figure out what AW is thinking and I find it a little frustrating.
Otherwise, I too am dying to see Vela in action and I would think an hour today would be ideal. (He will score vs ‘Pool in the CC, says my crystal ball.) I just don’t see how we can remake Eboue into a forward, so it seems Diaby or Vela should play up front with RVP and AA. (Or maybe bring in AA after Vela’s hour is done if we still need goals/Wilshere if it’s a romp.) And how bad are the injuries to Eduardo and Bendtner? (Not to mention Rosicky–like everybody else, I pray that a few days is not another 20 months.) To a certain extent, I understand that there is a purpose served in AW saying one thing publicly and another directly to his players, but, again, it’s frustrating to not really have a clue.
Anyways, glad I’ve got a match to watch (though maybe today I have to record it) and here’s to three more points and wrapping up the group.
As fans, its our ‘born of frustration’ coat of arms to second guess our manager.
There were so many challenges in midfield and with the defensive back four over the past year, that critiquing Almunia was a low priority.
As Arsene has fortified those areas, the gaf’s from Almunia continued, the type of mistakes that destroy morale.
As for the missing, Bendtner, Rosicky, Eduardo – better to err on the side of caution. Give them extra time to heal. Critical matches ahead, where we need them as healthy options.
Nipuna is right. These are moments that Arsene is so predictable with his pecking order
system.
In spite of Eboue and Diaby playing respectably, most of us would like to see some of the
youngsters be thrown in the mix of a strong line up (not in a mix of other youngsters).
I’d like to see Ramsey partnered with Cesc & Song in midfield. Agree with Vela on the wing, and keep
Mannone at GK.
Ramsey should get in, for some period, if not from the kick-off. IMO he’s very good (love the way he moves–low center of gravity?) and taking his opportunities nicely this season. I’m not clear why people aren’t more supportive of him. He seems to be developing extremely well.
I feel the same way. This kid (for his age) is mature, physically strong, and good vision.
Right now I think Arsene’s main project is Diaby (he’s been in the peeking order longer).
Eboue and Diaby will start.
Koeman has done well against Arsenal and Alkmaar are a decent team (even though they are deep financial trouble at the moment).
Still expect a two goal win. Arsh and vP to score.
I would love to see Vela start, but Arsene will probably go with the experience that is Eboue and probably bring Vela on in the 85th minute. Prove me wrong Arsene…be unpredictable and start Vela …the kid needs a chance.
Also, I would prefer to see Merida in place of Diaby, but thats another one of my pipe dreams.
Anyway, see you guys on game day chat tomorrow.
Hey I can dream can’t I?