In the Aftermath:Arsenal v West Ham – Match Review
William Gallas celebrates scoring - (Photo by Clive Rose/Getty Images)
Gutted.
Distraught.
Pissed off.
The list could go on. Everything was set for the Gunners to make significant headway in the league table. Man United lost to Liverpool. Spurs lost to Stoke, City and Villa both drew. An Arsenal win would’ve put the Gunners in third with two points over Spurs and 3 points over the next contender. Yeah, well didn’t you just know the red and white army would go ahead an cock it up!
I am one of those fans who internalizes team disappointment. I can’t even read the papers because I don’t want to relive the heartache I just witnessed. And I am finally setting down to write this after nearly a full days sleep. I didn’t want to do it because my original draft was laced with rather colorful language and well you all should know I don’t write that way. I try to stay objective and realistic. If I think we are going to lose, I will say so. Same thing with draws. But this was one freaking match that we should’ve taken clear and simple.
The match was a tale of two halfs. In the first half we dictated play, moved the ball around and controlled possession with our usual flair. We scored two goals one from an in form Robin Van Persie and another from William Gallas. Throughout the first half West Ham simply looked like they could not be bothered to go for anything. Headers, tackles, balls, with the exception of Carlton Cole, there was no committment from the side. A third goal looked in the offering but it never materialized.
The second half starts and you would expect that given the performance mid week again AZ Alkmaar the Gunners would want to enter the pitch and put it away. But that is where you would be wrong. Gianfranco Zola, clearly recognizing that his team needed to come away with something, had his team ready to come out on the pitch and play. Each one of his subsititions added something and wehn Diamanti entered the game the whole flow took on another feeling. Roles reversed and Arsenal now looked like the squad who didn’t want it. Carlton Cole who was the only threat West Ham had in the first half finally netted a low crossing header to put the home side 1 point down. The tide had definitely turned.
5 minutes later Arsenal were the recipient of two bad calls. The first was a missed penalty on William Gallas. Gallas clearly stuck his foot out (whether intentional or not I don’t know) and Parker tripped over it. The replay showed it was a clear penalty. Play went on, however a minute later, whether making up for a missed call or not, the ref called a dubious penalty on a really soft play. If anything I think it would’ve warranted a diving call. But alas it didn’t and the former Livorno player, Diamanti who looked rather erratic was set to take the kick. It should be noted that penalties are not given with Signore Diamanti. Against Liverpool he clearly kicked a ball twice – another poor call by the ref – and he has a penchant for rocketing shots over the goal. This time however, he didn’t and he netted a scorcher off just out of the reach of Mannone. I have to say Mannone had the play dead in terms of direction he was off the ball by inches (I’ve watched the replay and slowed it down – he is right there). I can’t give Mannone a bad grade on that.
2-2 and I’m scratching my head. Before the end of the game the West Ham keeper would make a save of pure brilliance on a shot from Robin Van Persie that looked like a true winner. But it wasn’t to be. We drew. West Ham deserved the point, and frankly we deserved nothing.
What went wrong is a mixture of two main things and lots of niggly things. The first two things are, team selection and desire. The first is up to the manager and the second to the players. I still do not understand the selection of Eboue and Diaby, when you have the likes of Wilshere and Ramsey available to you. I clearly understand that Eduardo and Nicky B were likely not fit for a full 90 minute match. Start the two younglings and let the others come on to relieve them if needed. Eboue who is showing a great effort has no business being up front. He is not made for that position. He is a full back pure and simple. Great speed coming up the wings with a lousy finishing touch. This was exemplified in the second half – up 2-0 with a chance to nail it shut – Eboue comes in up the right side, clearly beating the player and instead of a direct shot on goal or better yet a pass to Arshavin or RvP, he shoots it across the penalty box with out testing the goalie.
The other poor choice was Diaby. Again, he has promise but he is either not ready for prime time and needs more time with the reserves to learn or he simply is not Arsenal material. While he wasn’t dreadful, he wasn’t substantial. His tackling resulted in too many free-kicks near the penalty box that you were gritting yout teeth the whole time. Throw in bad judgement on when to bring players on and Arsene did manage this team properly yesterday.
The other part of this and in my opinion more of the reason why we drew comes down to the players. There is no doubting the talent on this squad. And if the likes of Nasri and Rosicky could get fit and join the rest on the pitch they would be as good as any team out there. With one exception – a desire to finish teams off. I can’t find much in the way of defencive lapses that led to those goals. The defencive back four didn’t have a bad game. Vermaelen and Gallas were their usual workman selves and Song is turning into a monster – still makes some niggly mistakes but overall he is clearly laying claim to the defencive midfielder role. Overall the entire team as a unit did not have the mentality to put the game away. Call it desire, call it gumption – either way when called for they simply did not seem to think that West Ham was that much of a threat. They talked about it all week long after the draw in Holland. They could not let teams in. They did yesterday and they are paying for it.
If this Arsenal squad ever get the hunger and killer instinct of say a Chelsea, they will win lots of silverware. The attacking flair is there they just need the ability to lock down an opponent and either hold a lead or score enough that even an opponent scoring isn’t much of a threat. We’ve seen it done this season. There is no reason it can’t be done. If it is done, than all the glory shall come – if not then this group will be perpetual runners up.
And even though we now sit in third on the table based on GD – there is no bright side to this. We can only hope that this is a mini slump and that next week’s derby against Spurs is used as a chance to re-enrergize and show the league we are for real.
Next Up:
Carling Cup: Arsenal v Liverpool
EPL: Arsenal v Tottenham
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I am wondering what kind of lineup we will see today. The following?
Fabianski, Gibbs, Senderos, Silvestre, ?, Nasri, Ramsey, Merida, Vela, Bendtner, Eduardo
Pretty strong lineup with no naturally defensive midfielder.
Nipuna –
An ideal line up for Fabianski to be significantly tested.
A lot of fire power, but defensively I see an abyss – down the center.
I like forward selections plus Ramsey and Nasri in MF……
and agree, there is concern for who can play the holding MF role.
Also worried about Senderos & Sylvestre as CB’s (more so Sylvestre).
If I were devising a tactical plan against Arsenal (this line up), the focus
would be to exploit our CB’s.
I don’t see Benitez using any of his starting 11 from the ManU match. So, I’m not sure if the MF quality for Pool can take advantage.
We definitely need a win and no injuries.
I’d like to see Wilshere, but you’d have to sacrifice someone to fit him in. Given a choice, I’d sit Nic since he’s played a fair amount this season. If you put Wilshere in though, you might have to switch to 4-4-2
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=690483&sec=england&cc=3888
Martinez is a brave guy to make such comments.
David Gills (?) is on FA Board right? Just like when Dein used to be on FA as well, other clubs perceived that the FA favored Arsenal.
Anyway, how about Arsenal start winning? Say 3 on the trot? I’m sure the FA will Arsenal differently.
That should read “… the FA will start looking at Arsenal differently …”
I just saw the West Ham game highlights. On the penalty incident, the ball reached Cole from a throw in!! Not one Arsenal player was able to head the ball before it reached the feet of Cole. The nearest Arsenal player was Alex Song. Not trying to blame an individual nor trying to over analyze but yet again our inability to deal with balls in the air is costing us dearly. :(
All this talk about how clubs view domestic cups has me sitting on the fence (again) about what I would rather see tomorrow:
(a) We play the best team, b/c getting a bad result for the third match in a row could leave us very vulnerable to another bad result against Spuds. And a bad result in that game could do serious damage to our league campaign, both statistically (2 or 3 points lost) and mentally (a derby loss is NEVER good).
(b) We give the boys a rest, give kids and back-ups some experience, and hope for the best. Yeah we’re playing a top side, but it’s definitely not a top competition. People say this could be our best chance of silverware this year, but I don’t give a damn. I don’t know about you guys, but to me there’s no difference between winning the League Cup and winning nothing. If it were up to me it wouldn’t exist- or it would exist purely as a reserve competition.
Winning something will get the big, giant monkey off their backs. Yeah, the one about never winning anything…EVER.
When Man U where in the “doldrums” they consoled themselves with the League cup … the season after the got the league title.
The league cup is still much, much, much better than nothing. Especially for this team that has NEVER won anything.
Arsenal v. Liverpool / Carling Cup
match will be broadcast live on ESPN360.com
If you have comcast or verizon internet service, the access is free. The screen size is not large but the
picture quality is EXCELLENT and the feed is uninterrupted.
From the U-17 WC Spain v. USA (you can watch the replay on ESPN360)
Two players in this match are rumored to be heading to Arsenal Academy
From the USA – Luis Gil #10
From Spain – Koka # 6 (captain)
That’s an interesting angle Fred.
Nice if it is that simple.
I’d be interested to hear if others think most top clubs don’t mind international football.
Perhaps England should consider a mid-season break – again, assuming it’s that straight forward and it does address the issue.
On Arsenal, we treat the LC as 100% meaningless and in recent times the FAC has become devalued too. So I don’t think we are that far away from the other major leagues in terms of our treatment of domestic cups.
Nothwithstanding that, Arsenal have to work in the league setup they have. We have no break. Indeed Christmas is the busiest time of year. I’m not sure what you mean by ‘planning ahead’, presumably buy more players? I think clubs need to cap their rosters. This idea of just accumulating more and more players is unsustainable.
I’m not sure how much fixture congestion is really a problem in England. I see it both ways.
Yes, the FA Cup is much more important than any other domestic cup- it is the oldest football competition in the world. Period. Now that’s prestige. Even the big clubs like Arsenal still hold it in a higher regard, I think, than the big clubs in other countries do w/ their domestic cups.
And yes, some other countries have a mid-season break… but how much of one? Germany’s is about 6 weeks- but they can afford it: with only 18 teams, they play 4 less games than the other big leagues. A break like that would perhaps be helpful in England, but obviously unfeasible.
The only way to do it would be Spain, which essentially just has one weekend off. It’s quite nice actually- only one match-day lost, but you get a full 14 days of rest and recovery. I could see that working in England.
But how much good would it really do? Take a break there, and you have to squeeze the games in somwhere else, b/c you can’t extend the season much further, if any, in either direction.
This is why I’m not sure if congestion is really worse in England or if the media just plays it off that way. La Liga starts 2 weeks after the EPL, takes a break, and still manages to finish at the same time- that means they’re cramming more games in a smaller amount of time.
Yeah, I can bet you a thousand bucks that Wenger is going to complain about Song leaving for the ANC.
He is going to moan and whine like a f&cking b%tch even though he has known of this exact scenario for ages. But bought no back up.
Yeah, there should be a cap on rosters. I think 25 players tops.
The problem is that we fill up our team with a bunch of kids who Wenger NEVER trusts, but he give the illusion of depth. So you have the likes of Coquelin, Ramsey, Wilshere and co. who bloat the roster but will never actually play an important match.
Anyway, Arsenal and ALL the big clubs do not have a leg to stand on when complaining.
Sure it is an annoyance for us fans, but the clubs should just shut the fuck up and get on with it.
Funny tho, how the international game is an annoyance for Wenger, but he still bigs up Walcott, Gibbs, Wilshere, Merida, Almunia, Clichy, etc for bigger roles in their NTs.
He advocates them getting more time b/c, as you rightly point out, he doesn’t have the balls to play them himself. Maybe he’s hoping that the NT coaches can test the water for him.
It’s win-win for Arsene. They get no playing time at Arsenal b/c he won’t trust them, so this is a way for them to get time and he doesn’t have to worry about.
And if they actually turn out to excel during the time they’re given, perhaps he’ll give them an expanded role in the first team… and then when that same player is called up again, he’ll complain about it this time b/c now it’s actually a nuisance to him rather than a help.
International football is a beast to be controlled. I think the 3-way pendulum between club/player/country is out of balance.
It looks to me that clubs outlay almost all the money yet absorb all the risk. If anyone wants to point the finger of blame for fatigue – international football is the prime candidate.
Perhaps FIFA and the other bodies who oversee the international schedules should have to pay the players salaries for the time they are absent and any additional absence if they get injured during international games. That would redress the balance somewhat. No more “borrowing the car and leaving it crashed in a ditch”. If you don’t think that ‘fair’ then pay 50% or whatever. The idea is to redress the balance and give clubs a fair go.
Am not at all sympathetic to the clubs plight.
Even though I dont like international football, the only clubs that “suffer” from international football are the TOP 4 clubs in England. Thats it. The big clubs of Spain and Italy hardly complain because their cups are meaningless and their league schedule is more spread out. And there is a January break.
So other than the top English clubs, all other clubs are THRILLED to have their players called up.
And lets face it, the top clubs in England make a shit load of money. Much more money than any European FA and infinitely more than most African and South American.
This whole “international football” problem is more of a problem for a big English club who refuses to plan ahead – i.e. Arsenal.
I agree with you overall- no sympathy for the clubs, which make an assload of money.
But the big clubs in other countries do tend to care when their players get called up- remember the big fight between Barca and the AFA about Messi playing in the Olympics? That’s just one example.
Big clubs themselves care no matter what country they’re in b/c it’s a massive investment (transfer fee and salary) being used for free and with high risk of injury.
My opinion is that the real difference between England and the other countries is with the fans and media. Because there is such a large number of foreign players, fans and media get annoyed when players get called away from big-name clubs to play for sometimes obscure countries.
The ACN is a perfect example. Annoying, I agree, as most fans would- and the English football media never fail to remind us of its’ annoyance.
But imagine if England were involved in a major international tournament in the middle of the EPL season. What supporter of an English club, or what English media outlet, would complain about an English player being taken away from their club? None.
I think Arsene erred with his selection – it’s that simple. In fairness he had a number of guys injured or on the way back. Yet, you know, if you have Fabregas/Diaby/Song/Eboue as 4 of the front 6 you deserve what you get. That line-up is utterly poor. It doesn’t mean they will fail to win in every game – but they will disappoint you way too often. Arsene has fielded these sort of line-ups in every disappointing game this season – ManU, ManC, AZ and West Ham.
He could have played Wilshere or Nasri in Eboue’s place even for half a game to ensure the team had forward balance, inventiveness and another goal scoring outlet. Instead he reacted way too late after West Ham equalised.
Surely, players need a break. If you’re not a goal keeper, playing 30+ league games in a single season is a lot of soccer. Anyway, I don’t think Arsenal dropped points at AZ and West Ham because of fatigue.
Top players should be playing every week. I believe Wenger had a plan. Between the AZ game and the West Ham game was five days. That’s plenty of time to recover and be fresh. Between the West Ham game and the Tottenham game is six days. That, too, is plenty of recovery time. I believe Wenger went into that sequence of matches intending to win them all with his strongest sqaud. Knowing our guys would have recovery time between matches, there was no need to rotate.
Arsenal didn’t draw those games because of fatigue but because they were unprofessional in their approach. They appeared to try and coast when there was still work to be done and it cost them. While no one can give 100% every game, you need more than 50% effort to beat even a bottom 3 BPL team. Let’s see if they can right that wrong.
While I’m a big fan of continuity, I’m also a fan of, occasionally, dropping a player every now and then. Sometimes it may be down to a dip in form. Sometimes it’s to reward another fringe player for their hard work in training. However, it’s almost never for fatigue. Now, if they have three games in eight days, that’s quite different and you have to respect that.
The primary reason I like to rotate is to keep my fringe plaeyrs sharp. Nothing can replicate the intensity of a competitive match. I like my players to be exposed to and comfortable with that intensity. I don’t want the first time they experience that intensity to be when I need them and they’re, mentally, unprepared for it.
JD check any top team you like, they all have a group of players that start 30+ EPL games per season. It’s absolutely normal.
One of the things that has changed over time is the intrusion of more international fixtures including meaningless friendlies and the fact that the top teams are now choc-full of internationals from every possible part of the globe.
This means the top teams get their squads regularly pillaged and traumatised by national obligations.
What you will see is the top teams being a bit more discerning about how they can minimise their exposure to these interruptions. So when Arsene jettisoned Toure and Ade part of his thinking was the bi-annual ACoN intrusion and the trips to less than glam fixtures with average medical support. Ditto, South America. The latin attraction will be balanced against the long-haul flights. Bert was an example and I wouldn’t be surprised if Vela’s less than stella start has been impeded (in perception and fact) by his regular jaunts.
It’s all about balance.
Apart from GKs and CBs, most players at top teams dont actually START up to 30 league games.
You’re being a bit naughty Fred – I referred to the group who start 30+ games. If you look at the 30+ and 25+ our players are absolutely similar to ManU who I assume are a good benchmark given they are the most successful club.
Nah, and I have already said, ours is much less because our players always get injured and miss big chunks of the season.
A much more accurate stat would be minutes played vs. availability.
why don’t you back up your theories with some evidence Fred. You’re the one making the grand claims. ;-)
Theories that we are tired at the end of seasons compared with Man U and Chelsea?.
Its a fact.
How is it a fact?
Looking at the end of last season for instance our three big losses Chelsea (FA Cup and EPL) and ManU in the Champion’s League were simply because we were outclassed. It had nothing to do with fatigue.
On the contrary except for those loses we finished in form last season. It was our start that was horrid.
I don’t see how you can say fatigue factored into last season or the season before. The facts belie a different truth.
Josh,
I agree with many of your points, but the example for rest is not exactly reflective of the situation.
Birmingham match on Saturday the 10th.
The international break 11th thru 17th. Training and 2 matches for their
National teams
Most of the AZ and WH Arsenal starters had International duty matches on
abt the 14th then on Saturday the 17th. The AZ match was on Tuesday
the 20th; then WH on Sunday the 25th. So there were 5 matches over 15
days.
As Kiwi lightly mentioned, travel does have an added effect on the bodies
recovery. So the players traveled to their home country, then had home and away matches within their group (more travel) then return travel to
London, the travel to AZ, then travel to WH.
Another factor to consider: did our competition AZ / WH have a similar number of players out for National team duties? Were most of their starters saddled by these extra matches?
I am not surprised for our sluggishness, most managers would have made adjustments.
Do you still believe our players were fresh for the WH match?
The obvious answer is they’re tired because it’s the end of a hard season.
I don’t think there is a single simple answer to the questions you pose, because our team and squad depth has varied over Wenger’s reign.
In the Mk I & II era’s I think we had a compact squad with a relatively small group of quality back-up players and it worked well most of the time. Even once we started dissembling Mk II in some haste we acutally still retained a fairly strong squad numbers-wise, look at the roster and games played of the 2005/6 team.
The problems started, imo, from 2006/7 onward. At this time the composition of the squad had changed markedly. This was the new dawn, Henry’s last season and the era of Ade/RvP/Rosicky/Hleb. What we now know is we had a group of players that time proved were unusually fragile in fitness. This together with the increased reliance on youth as backup placed an increased burden on a smaller and smaller group of ‘senior’ players.
It manifested fully the following season 2007/8 when a promising August-February flumped in legendary style. This season was truly a case were the depth just wasn’t there, yet not in numbers alone, but in robustness. So in that sense I agree with you, over-use became an issue. Rosicky broke down, ditto Perse, Eduardo was cut down and a ridiculous burden fell on a small core – Ade, Hleb, Fabregas & Flamimi – the ‘backup’ Walcott and Bendtner were frankly useless.
It is now true, Arsene in recent seasons has backed himself into a corner. By refusing to buy cover for the unusual cluster of crocked attacking players and by relying on less experienced/youth as cover which is then called upon, he is making life hard for himself and placing an increased mental (perhaps physical) burden on the remaining experienced players.
To answer your question directly:
Historically tired? That’s a big assertion which you have failed to support in any meaningful way.
Recent years tired? Yes, but this is a product of Arsene’s player recruitment choices (RvP and Rosicky), his youth experiment (which means we rely on players not yet ready to perform consistently at that level) and a bit of bad luck (Eduardo). Importantly he has refused to buy cover in attack. For this he alone carries full responsibility.
All that said, we are now in a place where Wenger is determined to push through and he hopes to reap the rewards of his perseverance. Only time will tell. Perse is repaying his faith. Rosicky is dicey but at least he is playing…sometimes. Ditto Eduardo. Song has improved. Denilson is tidy as a squad player. Diaby has played some good games. If we start to fall away and out of contention for the EPL then I’ll get cross again ;-)
Its good you spent the first 6 paragraphs agreeing with me completely.
Hard to argue with that! ;-)
Yes, “historically tired”. Henry, Pires, Vieira and co. always played more like zombies in the last third of seasons.
Ashley Cole, call him whatever you want is a very fit and hardworking player. After the Chelsea defeat he said he literally could not feel his legs. He intimated that the team was physically shot.
And this was the Invincibles season.
The facts on the pitch even in the weeks before the game proves it.
Smart and INTELLIGENT players like Pires, Henry, Bergkamp were physically shot. That comes from tiredness, not because they were chokers.
Yeah, I can take that they might not be suited to Europe. But moving around like zombies against a team like Chelsea who before then were are bitch helps make my point.
Either way, tiredness is not what lost us these last points. However we still need to use our players smartly or by next year we’ll struggle from the same problem.
I like agreeing with you Fred ;-)
All I can suggest is that you have a look at the actual record of matches played and reconcile your theory with that reality.
Fred, the numbers I quoted are ‘starts’.
The long and short of it is that only 4 players start more than 30 EPL games per season. Hardly supports a flogging theory.
So why are we tired at the end of seasons? Historically, not just with Mk 3.
There is “effect” because of a preceding “cause”.
If our players are regularly more tired than our main rivals it is not due to witchcraft or luck.
Give your own theory.
Kiwi makes a solid point about teams having a particular shape, personality, and style of play.
As manager, you plan to impose your style of play over the opponent. The strategy’s result is that it will lead to more scoring opportunities v. the opponent’s chances.
Watch ManU, Chelski, or Pool. It is the same with them. If they cannot impose their style over the opponent,
they draw or lose. All of their defenses are vulnerable. The exception is their goal keepers do have more experience and have the confidence of their teammates – EVEN WHEN THEY MAKE STUPID DECISIONS.
ManU and Chelsea have consistently better defense than we do, that is why they have finished higher and won titles in recent years.
If you have great defense, you don’t have to impose anything, you can snuff out the opponents attempts to score.
They also have game winners in their team, so when the chance falls to Drogba or Anelka, its usually in the net… United tend to have Rooney and MANY players that contribute more evenly, with Ronaldo gone.
Would you take the Arsenal defense & keeper over ManU or Chelsea in the last few years?
The statistics say NO…
This season, I don’t believe ManU or Chelski have advantage in defensive back 4, but they do have advantage at GK.
Yes, compared with recent years, their defenses were stronger than Arsenal.
However, their finishing higher was more a result of Chelski and ManU having better experienced depth. We lost key players last 2 seasons and had no quality replacements (attack and midfield).
No argument abt Drogba, Anelka but the construction of the Chelski team was funded by owner’s ego and deep pockets; not the same playing field for Arsenal.
Both Man U and Chelsea have a STRONG defensive advantage over us.
All the stats show it. All our eyes can see it. No need to argue.
The good thing is that our offense when functioning is better than both Man Us and Chelseas. That is why I never comprehend the use of tried and failed retards upfront.
Its not the same playing field for 98% of the teams in England in comparison to Arsenal’s financial power, but I don’t hear the Stokes and Hulls mentioning it very often… like we do as a reason why we don’t win.
If we don’t like it, we can do something about it. Wenger refuses.
Sorry if anyone was trying to get on the site and couldn’t get it.
My Hosting service changed routers and forgot to reset the server which caused the issue.
Thanks,
Michael
Great to have it online again, thanks Michael.
Let’s throw in a few stat’s just to demonstrate that this notion of Wenger being a serial fatigue-inducing offender is a nonsense.
Over the last 8 seasons:
Average number of Arsenal players who play more than 30 games in a season = 3.75 players (ManU = 3.0)
Average number of Arsenal players who play more than 25 games in a season = 5.75 players (ManU = 6.0)
I don’t anything extrodinary in Arsenal’s stat’s that would support any assertion other than Wenger adopts a similar position to Ferguson on player utilisation.
How does the fact that players are INJURED, because they are over-played, and forced to sit for multiple games factor into your statistics?
And it is WHO plays more than 30 games, that is important.
Key players need rest, not to be buried.
You use a false argument.
Wenger plays his players TILL they get injured. And usually they then miss maybe 2 or 3 months. Therefore lowering their appearances.
ALL our major players have gone through that almost every season.
In a lot of games last season, Ronaldo did not START the game, but usually came on as a sub if needed, so they might have had lots of appearances but not that high starts.
And Ferguson does NOT rotate the WHOLE team … if Ronaldo is on the bench, then Rooney, Giggs are surely starting. That is sensible.
A better statistic would be how many STARTS rather than how many appearances.
FACT: Man U players are fitter and less tired than ours in the last third of the season.
They do NOT have a better team than ours, but they sure are lively when the trophy time comes. We are not.
“When has Wenger’s Arsenal defended leads?”
Kiwi, I am curious. How exactly do we plan to “win” games? Score always in the last five minutes of the game so that the opposition has no time to react? Or score 10 goals so that even if the opposition scores 7, we win? :)
You can argue about how we defend leads – strong defence or a better midfield/attack which can keep the ball. But without defending leads, what hope do we have to win games and trophies?
I think you know what I mean. ;-)
I don’t know what you mean. You either play good solid defense, or you don’t win titles.
It’s a fact.
What you’re doing Stag is what a lot of fans do. They have this prototype of what a mythical effective functioning winning EPL/CL team looks like and how it performs. This ideal team scores goals and defends leads. Problem is it doesn’t exist, and when we do see it, it is an illusion that passes quickly.
Real teams have a shape and a personality. They tend to be either more attacking or more defensive. To do things a certain way. And they repeat their approach again and again, and repeat their errors again and again. Arsenal are no different, indeed under Wenger we are an extreme case. This is why it does matter whether we score only 2 goals particularly if we score them early. Why? Because we aren’t particularly good at defending leads, we are built to attack not defend. If we have a tight game and then score 2 goals later in the game we might be fine. These nuances are important.
What is pointless. Is applying this ideal prototype of a non-existent side as a benchmark against Arsenal and proceeding to slag them off. You need to accept the MO and limitations of Wenger’s approach.
I don’t have to accept stupidity, and never will. It’s insane to keep doing the same thing, and expecting a different result.
Wenger doesn’t address the defense we NEVER win shit.
Simple.
Kroenke gets closer and closer, hopefully HE will force Wenger to address the needs… or else.
“Eduardo’s and Nasri injuries had nothing to do with fatigue, but Theo’s, Djourou’s, and Rosicky’s could be argued.”
Where is the evidence to suggest that the injuries to Walcott, Djourou and Rosicky are caused by fatigue? You gotta be joking.
Walcott and Rosicky have been horribly injured and absent for much of the last 18 months. How is that a matter of fatigue? Mental fatigue on the treatment table perhaps? Djourou? When did he last play 2 games straight for the first team?
“I think Stag’s argument holds merit, not for the current October, but in the January – March window; after players have played 40+ matches.”
Yes, we could see a group of tired boys fading come Feb/March. Yet IMO that is not because Wenger fails to rotate his players, more-so because he has of late carried too many chronically injured players and failed to mitigate that risk. I have said this for 2 years. Carrying RvP (less of an issue with each passing month it seems), Rosicky, Eduardo, and we can now add Walcott to that collection is massively risky. It places an onerous burden of responsibility on the remaining senior players and gives the young players too much game-time.
“WE SCORED TWO GOALS… the ATTACK was not the problem.
2 attackers, 6 attackers… it matters not, we had 2 goals and a lead well into the 2nd half. Folded like an accordian.”
When has Wenger’s Arsenal defended leads? Answer, never unless you take into account the Mk I side whose defence was developed by GG. As for your assertion that it doesn’t matter whether they play 2 or 6 attackers you’re reasoning is becoming rabid and illogical.
Kiwi,
I admit that there are times when details of the past are cloudy. So this maybe the case BUT,
I remember in June ’09, Arsene really being upset with Stuart Pierce for Theo’s inclusion in the U-21 squad tournament & then also being selected for National Team (Capello). Theo’s participation prevented him the usual training routine for Arsenal pre-season. Arsene,
himself, placed blame on these extra competitions for the injury.
Do I have the wrong scenario?
Djourou’s injury occurred while in preparation and training with his National Team. His injury happened either in training or in one of their matches, the team physician checked
him out & determined the injury serious – so they sent him back to England and allowed
Arsenal to make final diagnosis and perform surgery.
Rosicky’s injury to his knee (these are fuzzier details as it happened 2 years ago); occured during a league match in February ’08, he just came of the pitch ( I believe at half time) not to return. As Captain of his National Team, he played in National Team matches during the fall of ’07, so in addition to the EPL, FA Cup, CL matches.
My point was that every player’s body has physical limits. Playing 6- 7 matches a month for
a 7 month period, has a higher risk for producing injury.
“Walcott and Rosicky have been horribly injured and absent for much of the last 18 months. How is that a matter of fatigue?”
Kiwi, with this statement, aren’t you changing the goal posts of the discussion? The length of an injury has nothing to do with the cause. I am merely stating that these players were subject to an unusually demanding schedule of matches. (I am not grouping Theo’s injury
from last season into this discussion).
Yes, you are right about the long absences for Rosicky and Eduardo and blame can be
assigned to Arsene, maybe he was too optimistic for BOTH. However, our medical staff originally felt that Rosicky would be ready 4-5 month’s earlier – it proved to be wrong and additional surgery was required.
RvP, Arashin, Cesc get paid the big bucks compared to our defenders and goal keepers.
Our attack in the second half, stayed in the dressing room at half-time. Yes, I do place
the blame on these three. This is not just my impression. Most of the post match commentary agrees.
By the way, I do agree with you about Arsene’s lack of priority for defense, but I don’t see
this as the issue vs. AZ and WH.
People talk like they know but the truth is no one knows why Wenger continually plays with Eboue up front. Perhaps he’s a stellar goal scorer in training and Wenger is hoping for him to bring that form to games. That’s my best guess but I don’t have really don’t know. One thing I do know is Eboue doesn’t play up front because Wenger is stupid. Anybody got any better ideas?
I quite like Eboue. He has fast feet, he’s a great link-up player, he’s likes to move the ball quickly, he has great vision, an incredible motor, makes intelligent runs, and besides Theo, he’s the quickest and fastest guy we’ve got with the ball at his feet.
I think Eboue’s a bit of an Enigma for Wenger. He’s not a great defender, he’s not a great play maker, and he’s not a great goal scorer. However, he’s very good at everything else you want in a footballer. He has good power, pace, fitness, quickness, and intelligent movement. What do you do with somebody like that?
Personally, I would like to see him come in off the bench in midfield when we look devoid of ideas. Wenger’s not likely to do that because Eboue’s unlikely to win you a game when you need a goal. But when nothing else is working, just to inject his fresh legs, pace, and energy into the side that defenses have to cope with would be a great idea. I believe his energy transfers to his teammates and scares the piss out of opponents. It’s only an idea but I think it’s a good way to use him.
Josh, Eboue is terrible around the net. He can not shoot straight, he does not score goals, and he doesn’t even pass that well.
I think he’s a decent player, blessed with some speed and skills, but he should be a back-up, coming off the bench, and used in Carling, FA Cup and meaningless CL matches.
Just my two cents on EE.
I agree Stag. Eboue is a useful FB, yet I fear this experiment of transforming him into an attacking utility is forever doomed to disappoint.
I do agree with Stag and Kiwi’s assertions about Eboue – not noted for his final
pass and scoring touch; but many complained on the same faults for Hleb.
Actually his theatrics with contact bother me more than his shooting.
Up until AZ and WH, he’s avoided criticism, which is a positive statement for
his contribution.
When Arsenal under perform, the criticism is directed at the same
usual suspects: Almunia, Clichy, Eboue, and Diaby. I expect with time,
this list will shrink.
I saw the selection of Eboue for his energy, speed, and unpredictability. His teammate understanding has improved this season, and when he takes the ball inside, usually with good pace, he becomes an unsettling figure for the opponents defense.
I don’t ever see Arsene selling this player. His value is his positive attitude, a good role
player, has proven to be durable, and on occasion he’ll produce a goal.
Jumping into the players from poverty debate, some players are simply blessed with talent and determination regardless of their background. The last two FIFA POTY winners, Kaka and Cristiano Ronaldo, both came from affluent backgrounds. Ronaldo and Roberto Carlos came from the gutter. The background isn’t always a telling factor. The desire and ability to be great, coupled with the opportunity to develop, is the constant in all of these players.
I remember discussing last year with Carrib about how very unlikely it is to have a “rags to riches” story about a soccer player in the US. For kids to develop in the US, they’ve got to play at the highest level, which is in the youth premier divisions. To play on those teams is very expensive. The leagues, the coaches, the various uniforms and equipment, the transportation, the food, the lodging, and the time to commit to you kid virtually every single weekend is a big sacrafice of both time and money. I know, regrdless of my desire and ability, my mother couldn’t have afforded for me to play.
I believe that in the US, we only tap into about 20% of our potential because football is a “rich man’s game” here. However, in other places, if you have the talent, someone will find you and give you a chance at greatness. Wayne Rooney and Stephen Gerrard developed playing on the streets of Merseyside. The US doesn’t have that kind of place to develop for poor kids. If it wasn’t a money thing, I think we’d see the US be a much stronger football nation. If you look at the US national team pool, you MIGHT find one player who grew up poor.
100% correct.
We’re talking about most great players coming from hardship.
I totally agree with your remark about soccer (at the higher youth level) requires financial ability from parents for the uniforms, travel, and coaching costs. So Josh, wouldn’t you agree we (USA) have no great soccer players? Based on international standards, never have?
So our current system is not restricting families with the financial ability.
The example of US football, attracts the better athletes because of the money opportunities; but the majority of these same athletes, that pursue US football, come from hardship. also applies to the NBA. Baseball, so many of the better athletes are nurtured from Puerto Rico and Dominican
Republic, again hardship foundation.
Yes, the National Team Pool is composed of kids from better off families, yet that is not my point of contention. Will any of these players compete at international standards, or even to my issue, be
considered great?
Josh, Stag, and others,
go to ESPN360.com and watch the replay of yesterday’s USA v. Spain U-17 match. Spain had a player red carded after 63 seconds. Then the USA scores in the 4th minute. Down a man the entire match, Spain still won 2-1, but the score is not as important as observing the individual talent level difference & tactical understanding.
By the way, the U-17 USA Team lives and trains together in Bradenton, FL. So this is not a collection of fragmented players from across our country.
Anyway, it’s good to have these discussions and expand on the GAME itself and learn insight of each other’s perspectives and how they relate to our supporting Arsenal.
Like I said earlier, we’re only tapping into about 20% of our potentially good soccer players. This doesn’t include our best athletes in general; only our best soccer players.
It’s always good to hear of a kid who came from nothing and was doomed to fail defy those odds and become a great athlete. However, it’s not a requirement to becoming a great player. Jordan, LeBron, and Kobe didn’t come from the gutter and they were all great.
Desire, ability, and opportunity to develop were the essentials. If you take Clarence Seedorf and at twelve years old, move him to Bradenton Florida and give him a Nike contract, he doesn’t develop into the player he is today. If you take a 12 year old Freddie Adu (minus a Nike deal) out of Bradenton and put him in the Amsterdam parks, he becomes a better player or he quits. It’s not about money, it’s about skill, desire, and developing your game.
I thought Diaby played ok on Sunday. He does have an issue of giving away casual and unnecessary fouls in dangerous positions and this was to the fore against West Ham. He also seems to be a bit calamitous in the box defending set-pieces. Yet that aside ;-) he didn’t do too bad against West Ham and I think the criticism he attracted was more due to ‘lumping’ or the ‘confirmation bias’. These are 2 favourite practises of fans.
Lumping is where a fan unfairly tars a number of players with the same criticism. The criticism may be rightly due to one but not the other(s). In this case, Eboue’s selection, to me, deserved criticism but Diaby played a valid role and to be honest Wenger had no real options with Denilson, Nasri and (perhaps) Rosicky all out.
The confirmation bias is where a fan simply dislikes a player and any disappointment sees their ire directed again at that player – often wholly without logic. Again Diaby may not be your cup of tea yet he played ok. He played the same CM role he has done many times this season, the difference this time is that we lost our lead, whilst in the past we have mostly won.
Whilst we still see signs of our past vulnerability should we be surprised? Do we honestly expect everything to come right overnight? Is that reasonable? What we need to see is progress and I think we have. Look at the tables in the EPL and CL – we are doing fine. We are keeping pace and that is all we can ask at this stage.
What we do need to see is this team bouncing back again the way they did post-Manchester. If they do, great. We need another little run. That’s how you stay in the race. Disappointment is followed up with a run of results. If they don’t, if we stumble again, then Arsene knows he is going to get howls of criticism. Spurs is a big game. Always lots of emotion and the resulting game does not always follow form. Spurs are in relatively sound shape under Rednapp.
My major concern is the impact of our injuries (none of which are due to fatigue). It is too early in the season to be lamenting so many players on the sideline, particularly when several are ‘knowns’. I truly hope this doesn’t bite us again in the bum. If it does Wenger should have his remuneration docked and issue fans an apology. Rosicky and Eduardo are known high-risks, Walcott is almost in this category, and Nasri is a serious injury but unheralded. The cummulative affect is concerning. We need these guys as options in the squad. When they aren’t there Wenger plays truly horrible line-ups that lack creativity venom and verve. Line-ups that George Graham used to fashion in his declining years. Schwarz, Selley, Morrow, Hillier….. now read Fabregas, Diaby, Song, Eboue….. there is simply not enough offensive creativity and pace in that DNA.
Give it a rest Stag on the fatigue, tiredness, rotation theme. One of the myriad problems with that line, aside from it being superficial, is it cannot be proved.
In October, which of our injuries is due to fatigue????? Nasri, Walcott, Eduardo, Rosicky????
I thought these guys are high performance sportsmen? No? So with the core playing, say 10 games for Arsenal they’re tired, fatigued, rundown, needed a recharge, a spell on the sidelines, any and all disappointments are due to Arsene overworking their sore bodies?
Now the we lose a 2-goal lead because of fatigue.
Your flogging a dead horse. Injuries happen to the fresh and the tired. These guys shouldn’t be tired at this stage of the season. Few have played enough games to ring alarm bells. We slipped at both AZ and West Ham for a number of conspiring reasons. I doubt fatigue was anywhere near the top.
Kiwi, I believe its a factor. You don’t. You say what you wish, I’ll say what I wish. At the moment, my arguement has its merits, and it just reared its ugly head 2 matches in a row.
I don’t like it. But its reality.
We lost the 2 goal lead because of fatigue, lack of depth (which causes fatigued players), unwillingness to rotate players, a lack of an option in the key positions, no number one keeper, and not enough experience and/or mental toughness.
What can be proved?
What hypothesis do you have for the cause, that you can prove?
You can’t prove that fatigue or lack of rotation had anything to do with this loss or Tuesday’s loss either.
You are running on a hypothesis yourself.
The year is 14 matches (all competitions old). One match has seen the youngsters play – so let’s call it 13 matches.
I don’t think we’ve had the same lineup 100% match to match except for maybe these last two draws.
I think he has more to do about focus and determination than it does about fitness.
A little thing called evidence can support other rationale. For instance, in all our disappointing games (ManU, ManC, AZ and West Ham) we played only 2 attackers. Eboue was in the 3-man attack on 3 ocassions, Diaby the other. That is pretty good evidence that when our team is unbalanced we struggle to perform over 90mins.
That has zero to do with rotation or fatigue. Your spin on fatigue can only be supported by academic style analysis over a long peiod and using a large sample.
Fatigue is this intangible that sits in the background and I would have thought a guy like Wenger with his penchant for stats and diets and his protectionist attitude to his players (i.e. no overseas tours pre-season) would take fatigue into account. So I think your at risk of jumping all over a theory that will go nowhere and has little applied relevance to this case.
WE SCORED TWO GOALS… the ATTACK was not the problem.
2 attackers, 6 attackers… it matters not, we had 2 goals and a lead well into the 2nd half. Folded like an accordian.
If you want to blame the set-up, go for it… I think that’s non-sense.
Kiwi – I think Stag’s argument holds merit, not for the current October, but in
the January – March window; after players have played 40+ matches.
Over a seven month period, mid-Aug thru mid-March, thats almost six
matches a month & in some years for National Team players
that match number is greater; the French players this fall, add another 6
matches (WC qualifiers) prior to mid- November. So now you’re at almost
7 matches a month for the period.
Plus, National Team players must endure travel to far away venues. The long travel, adds to
slower recovery from fatigue. (scientifically proven)
Eduardo’s and Nasri injuries had nothing to do with fatigue, but Theo’s, Djourou’s, and Rosicky’s could be argued.
“Most great players in every sport come from a background entrenched in poverty or hardship.”
(my perspective)
I see “fighting spirit” from Gallas, Vermaelen, Clichy, Sagna, Rosicky, Wilshere, and Song.
I don’t see ‘the will to win’ from a RvP, Arshavin, Cesc, Diaby, Denilson, Eboue, and Vela types.
Most teams take on the personality of the Manager and this holds true for Arsenal.
I do not see Arsenal winning any silverware this year. Not because I
want to see Arsene fail, not because I don’t love the team, but I see too many
short comings in this roster.
1) no keeper that the field players have confidence in…..
2) lack of credible depth CB
3) neither starting outside backs are a threat in attack (and other teams
aren’t concerned when either Sagna or Clichy come down the wing.
4) leadership void; I only see 3 players capable of leadership
Vermaelen, Arshavin – when he is not playing lazy, and Rosicky. As much as
I see talent in Cesc, he’s not Captain material for me.
5) untimely injuries
Candidly, I have posted earlier that I thought picking up Vieira would be a mistake
in the January transfer market – he cannot give a full 90 minutes. Yet, this player
is a ‘champion’ and has the competitive spirit that could set an example for many
of our youngsters, even if for only 45 minutes.
Killing off our opponents cannot be taught in training sessions. Its a mind set that
comes from wanting it more than your opponent.
Almost lastly, our Manager did not believe our draw to West Ham was from
complacency: “It is not complacency. We just have to continue to play in a rigorous way, respect the game we love and the pass. That is what we forgot sometimes on Sunday and we paid for it.”
Followed by:
Afterwards “I was asked if we lacked a killer instinct. Well, in football, sometimes you have periods like that. But when you make a problem of it, it becomes a real problem. We have to play the football we love and learn when we are leading to kill the games off.”
This type of BS response is what caused all the fan, blog, and media criticism last year.
Anyway, the start of this season has raised our hopes and expectations.
I don’t buy into the “poverty/hardship” of great players theory at all…
A-Rod and Jeter, for the Yankees… neither are from poverty or hardship.
Peyton Manning / Tom Brady… hardship? Poverty? Nope and Nope.
LeBron YES.
Kobe, not so much.
Hockey players tend to be middle class. People in poverty and hardship, can not afford to play.
I don’t know the details of the EPL’s best, but I would imagine there are both players from tough backgrounds and solid ones.
————–
Vieira.
He would be a good addition. His “type”. It doesn’t have to be him, but he has experience with Wenger, the club, and the system or style of play.
Someone with “an edge”… toughness, and willing to do what is necessary.
At this point, I HIGHLY doubt Arsene Wenger will address this issue.
He refuses to admit mistakes and learn from them, instead he likes to make excuses or “didn’t see it”.
As it was before the season started.
Keeper and DM is what we lack, and the ability of the manager to use more than 12 to 13 players in the squad…
What is the most frustrating for all of us, is that we are CLOSE. Close to being able to compete for the League and Cups, and the EPL is wide open.
I think I said most, not all AND yes there are exceptions.
If you research each major sport & take the list of GREAT PLAYERS, you’ll
see that a modest background as a common thread.
Soccer’s 3 greatest players: Pele, Maradona, and Cruff.
For basketball, more would recognize Jordan and Bird
Baseball – Steroid users get the usual asterisk by their stats: A-Rod, Bonds, Clemens, Palmero, hell this list is endless.
So those that achieved their stats unaided by science: Mays, Aaron, Mantle, Clemente, Hornsby, Cobb, Ruth,
Football – Peyton and Brady are exceptions.
Namath, Tarkenton, Marino, Jim Brown, Starr, Payton, Sayers, Bradshaw,
My point is many of our young players are pampered. The better players on
the team were bought and did not come up through the academy ranks: Vermaelen, Gallas, Sagna, Rosicky, Arshavin, Eduardo.
Soccer, is a sport for the poor. Its a different sport, the world sport.
Children kick balls made of rags and plastic.
Basketball, not buying it at all.
Magic and Bird are from 20 years ago.
Baseball is a RICH persons sport.
ALL the players you named are from 40 or more years ago.
Football, you named players from 20 plus years ago.
This era of athletes, is a completely different kettle of fish, that your arguement doesn’t hold up against. Maybe in other countries, but not in the US, and US Sports.
Stag – you argue just to argue but can’t provide specifics…….
So for today’s basketball players name 3 great basketball players whose background supports your position;
do the same for baseball; football
I will respect your opinion when you can justify with facts.
Actually, its YOUR arguement.
I don’t argue just to argue, but the players that you mention are from DECADES ago.
You simply have no factual data from THIS ERA… say the past 20 years, other than LeBron James, and I pointed him out, not you.
Your theory is based in the past… 20 to 40 years ago…
Not present or even recent past.
Yeah not so sure I buy the “born in poverty” argument.
Maybe for the African players and some of the French players.
But English, Spain and Holland – less likely.
THe desire to kill off teams is a competitive spirit. And while I think everyone on the squad is competitive, they may be just too young to understand what it takes to get the job finished.
The likes of Vermaelen, Arshavin (agreed when he isn’t taking time off) and Gallas are and can be invaluable. They need to be more vocal.
Unfortunately, if any one of those 3 players were to go down with an injury, (which happens when you play every match)… we have nobody to replace them even in the short term.
(Not to mention Cesc)
Gallas has had his share of CHOKES at the back in recent years as well.
DAG –
do some research on English, Dutch, and Spanish “playing greats”……
majority came from families of little means.
At the end of the day, week, month…
It all comes down to Arsene Wenger.
If we don’t have players with the killer instinct, mental toughness, and experience… to kill teams off, to be able to defend when it matters, to win matches you simply have to win, its ARSENE’s fault.
He refuses to address it. It is not something that is new.
Good teams, the one’s worthy of titles, do not lose 2 goal leads to the bottom teams, especially when you know how important the game is in the standings. They knew the outcomes from the weekend. That should have been all the incentive needed to blow the Hammers off the pitch.
Fatigue plays a factor. Tired teams lose 2 goal leads.
To me, it would have to be a reason we were “sleepwalking” in the 2nd half. If Arsenal can’t switch up the line-up slightly to get fresh legs against AZ Alkmaar in a virtually meaningless CL match, and against one of the worst teams in the EPL, when will it ever occur?
Answer: when injuries force it… as always.
Keeper. It is a major problem. We have no answers in net.
Mannone, Almunia, Fabianski… there are no Number One’s in our squad.
Again, absolute refusal to address the problem by Wenger.
This alone has cost us points this season… and no matter what happens going forward, without a top keeper, you are NOT winning a title.
So either one of our average at best keepers has to morph into something he is NOT, or… we will witness the “flap-fest” that goes on week in, week out.
Mannone actually knocked the ball towards the front of the goal for Carlton Cole to score.
Without that goal happening, there is no issue with the 2nd goal.
Oh, and for all you conspiracy theorists…
what happened in the Manchester United game?
Why didn’t the refs call a dodgy penalty against them or make sure that United won in Liverpool?
Ohhhhhhh… wait… they played a LOT of extra time, but LIVERPOOL scored in the extra time.
That should be the end of that absolute bullshit theory… thankfully.