Say no to managerial change. Say yes to a changed manager.
Well, it is the day after. You can imagine the raucus nature of the debate occuring today around the Arsenal kingdom. Universall disappointment and dissatisfaction with the outcome of the season. Moreso than in any other of the last 6 seasons.
This was a tailspin that noone has been able to pull the Arsenal out of. Not Cesc Fabregas. Not Jack Wilshere. Not Robin Van Persie. Certainly not even the manager, Arsene Wenger. Rightly or wrongly, Arsene Wenger is inextricably tied to the failures of this season. He is the focus of all that happens in the public of the club. When a player fails it is not the player who gets chastised, it is Arsene Wenger. When we don’t buy in the transfer market it is Arsene Wenger.
I am not passing judgement on anyone who places blame on Wenger. He certainly deserves it. However, I am here to argue for his continued employment by this club. Because as I believe he is still the right man for this club.
I’ve not personally waded in to the should he or shouldn’t he go argument. I’ve added a couple snippets but overall I have gotten different writers to argue the point. Today I wanted to lay down my rationale for his staying.
First let me add this disclaimer – I am not of the mind that Arsene Wenger is irreplaceable. I also don’t think Wenger is the only manager who could manage at this club and enjoy success. For those that are so inclined to belive that, I draw your attention to when Arsene Wenger was announced as our manager. Who knew of the bespectacled Frenchmen then? Very few I would wager. The point is, there is likely another Wenger in the making, he only needs a club to give him a shot.
But let’s go to the cruxt of the argument I have. That is under Wenger the success of the club is unparralleled in the clubs history. True much of that happened 6 years ago. But I guess it depends on how you measure success. I look at the totality.
Let me ask you a question – many of you know the New England Patriots. They continue to be the staple by which all other professional gridiron clubs are measured by. Can you tell me the last time the won the Super Bowl? If you answered 2005 you are correct. Still even through camera gate and Tom Brady’s and failed playoff runs the club is held up in esteem and regard by fans and peers because success for them is measured in more than just wins. It is measured in consistency.
I argue that Wenger and Arsenal should be measured in very much the same way. Consistency. Not just trophies. True, we all want trophies and its maddening when so much promise is shown only to be squandered away. But out club is a model of consistency under Wenger that it never enjoyed in the 92 seasons we existed before he got here.
In the 92 seasons before Wenger arrived to Highbury, Arsenal only ever finished in the top 4 23 times. To narrow the time frame down further and in direct comparison to Wenger who has been here for 14 years, the 14 immediate years before Wenger arrived (including the George Graham era) the club finished in the top 4 – 6 times. In the 14 years of the Wenger era, he has never finished out of the top 4.
There have been many clubs coming in to the top 4 in that time frame only United have the same consistency as Arsenal.
Additionally keeping the club in the top tier of the Premier League given the changing dynamics of the league is also something to be lauded not shirked. Since 2004 Arsenal have had transfer dealings of +£11.5 million pounds. In that time frame United have -£108.7 million pounds, Chelsea have -£397.5 million, Man City have -£435.2 million and Tottenham have -£239.6 million. Spurs have one top 4 finish and City is working on its first in that time frame.
These are priniciples to be lauded and adhered to. Spending does not guarantee success. Focus and vision does.
But that being said, I feel that Wenger is in need of a do-over. He needs to change his focus. Relying on youth and enjoying the success he has is admirable. However, youth alone does not get the club over the hump of winning. And as long as the club continue to be successful without winning something, the focus on youth and controlled spending will be viewed as a failing effort.
Wenger needs to change that sole focus from an over reliance on youth to one that develops youth talent, promotes those deserving of it and supplements the youth with quality talent that has experience to lend to a growing group of talented players.
The manager himself post-Bolton has admitted as much that his policy has likely let him, the clubs and more importantly the fans down. It is quite evident that a period of reflection is going to occur for the next few weeks and even if winning returns, rueing missed chances will be the story for the foreseeable future.
The last six years have sucked on part because we have watched others do things we want to do but won’t be done by our club. A few years of this would have been more tolerable if adjustments were made along the way to help this club get over the hump when it matured. This season more than any of the past 6 is a testament to that.
There were sheer flashes of brillance by this club. The demolition of Chelsea and the comeback win against Barcelona standout. But they are tempered by the failures of the last two months. Those two months needn’t have happened had their been the right mix of experience and youth on the pitch when things started turning sour.
The manager who has given this club so much deserves the opportunity to change the direction he and the board set in motion. In this season we were truly in it. We were there and it slipped away. In seasons past there was hope but it was a false hope. He deserves that chance but if he fails at that and I mean:
- He doesn’t jettison as much deadwood as he can (not everyone is going to buy our dregs)
- He doesn’t bring in a few experienced and talented players (you don’t have to pay over the odds)
- He doesn’t show the flexibility needed to make this club winners
If he fails at that then I will be one of the first people who will agree it is time for him to be “promoted” to the board room. Right now, I think he deserves the chance to show he has learned from this season and that he can build a winner.
To me he has to look at the club in much the same way he did when he came here. He saw a club of talented players. Helped some realize their potential but rounded it out with players who fit his vision. He makes that approach to running the club this summer he will be fine. . . and so will the club.
A Quick Note On Fan Protests:
There is word circulating the twitterverse and facebook that at the home match versus Villa – the last home match of the season – there will be a friendly march from the Cannons pub to the stadium.
It is being held by Black Scarf AFC from the web site Where Has Our Arsenal Gone? The walk called the “You Are My Arsenal” walk is a protest against the rising costs associated with football and specifically Arsenal. No word yet on estimated attendances but if what I read on the twitterverse is right – its taking on a whole other dimension.
On one hand you have avid Wenger supporters saying that it is really a march against Wenger which they are decrying and trying to form their own counter protest. Then on the BSAFC side, you have a tacit denial.
Having followed BSAFC, I am inclined to believe them in their intent. It has always been this way with them and the long for the yesteryears of not so long ago. I won’t get into that part of it but given the current financial times, I can absolutely side with protesting the rising costs of attending a football match.
That being said, it will likely not amount to much except that it may get people heard. The only real way to affect change at the club on the board level is to hit them in their pockets. Which means not going to matches, not watching on Sky or buying the latest kit. It is the only way to get them to take notice.
While not on the same level, all the fan outcry at Liverpool did nothing to change the minds of Hicks and Gillette. As much as the scousers would like to think otherwise. It was simply as their financial backing had become to tennuous to maintain. They were going to have large debts to call in they could not handle. Hicks had already gone through it with baseball’s texas Rangers. Had the financial issue not gotten so bad for Hicks and Gillette and they had been able to keep things going – they would still be there sinking that club further into the abyss.
What that shows is that for all the protests by the fans – and the merseysiders were vocal – it was money that finally forced them to sell and affect a change at the club. And that is all that will change the board at Arsenal.
When fans are willing to let their tickets go and stop frequenting or watching matches and buying kits enmasse – that’s when you will see change.
Until then. . . expect another ticket price hike in the next few seasons.
och well . . . until our next installment. . . Stay Goonerish!!!!
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I don’t know about you guys, but Wenger’s fringe lunatic tantrums on the side lines is downright embarrassing and reflects poorly on the club.
How does that affect the players? Does that put added pressure on them to perform, or maybe they just don’t give a rat’s ass.
I am not a big fan of that pompous, egotistical, name dropping, stuffed shirt, Myles Palmer but he does have many interesting things to say at times.
Nice take on Wenger today:
http://www.arsenalnewsreview.co.uk/news/2050/30/Wenger-s-been-sulking-since-Birmingham/
:
@Caribkid, Myles is right in that everyone knows Arsenal’s problems. When Hull were promoted they won at the Emirates in their first try and their #$@ manager noted that they practiced set-pieces seeing how Arsenal were vulnerable in that area. And over the years, many other teams, including Fulham & Everton, have exploited that aerial weakness, so what Bolton did was just taking a leaf out of other teams playbook. The only thing I am waiting to hear from the Ministry of Truth is that goals scored from corners are not really proper football, so they should not be counted :)
Myles notes that Man Utd cannot clinch the title on sunday but if Chelsea lose on sat (unlikely as that maybe), then Man Utd would be as good as champions with a win. The last time Arsenal did not lose to Man Utd was 2 years ago when Man Utd needed just a point to clinch the title. Back then Man Utd were happy with 0-0 but other than that draw, they have just one defeat against Arsenal in the last 10 games.
When I celebrated that amazing title win at Old Trafford in 2002 I did not imagine that I might have to see Man Utd win a title at Arsenal but this sunday it might be as close to that as possible.
We’ll always have Paris.
oops, that didn’t turn out so well. In that case..
We’ll always have 2004.
basically, when the games matter… the big games…
CL Semi’s and beyond… FA Cup Final Day… etc…
Arsenal fans are left to hope certain teams “don’t win”… I am hoping United DON’T WIN today… and I watch City and Tottenham hoping they don’t win, and get closer in their hopes of catching us for 3rd…
I can watch QPR’s celebration as they will clinch making the Prem next year… that’s about the highlight of the next few weeks.
@stag133,
Actually, I could be all right with United winning today. One, for the Premier League. Two, the further SAF goes in the CL the more it has to get under Wenger’s skin. Three, Might leave them a little softer for this weekend.
@vibe4arsenal, why would you care if they are “softer” for this weekend?
LOL
beating them isn’t likely, and I’d rather they win the league than Chelsea…
I don’t want Wenger hanging his hat on ANY perceived “accomplishment” at this point.
@stag133,
I absolutely agree beating them isn’t likely. But it would also be just like this team to win a meaningless game in which they’re already being written off.
In any case, my number two reason is really my number one…every accomplishment for SAF is another mini-dagger for Wenger. I’m trying not to go down the road of rooting for Arsenal to lose, so I’m just finding ways to root against Arsene that don’t tie me in too many knots.
From Young Master Walcott’s Interview in the Telegraph. Pretty good stuff in here:
“Without a doubt this has been my best season. I feel good, I feel fresh every time I play. The end product is definitely there now, with the goals and assists.
“The boss was very happy with the runs I was making off the ball and I hope that will influence him to play me up front more next season. I enjoy my time on the pitch now. Maybe before I was thinking, ‘I don’t want to get injured’. Now I’m just relaxed and say to myself, ‘go and enjoy it’. I still get the odd few nerves but that’s healthy. A lot of teams will double up on me and I take that as a compliment.
“[Losing leads] has been the disappointment of this season. You feel like you need to score three or four goals to win at times. The Newcastle game…it shouldn’t happen, even if you go down to 10 men. If we want to be winning things we can’t let a lead like that slip. That’s what have been doing too much this season.
“We have had a lot of disappointing results. Spurs beating us at home when we were 2-0 up is not good, especially for the fans because that’s the one they look forward to all year.
“Hopefully we will learn from it. We have to. If we want to win trophies we need to learn straight away. We can’t be using the excuse of being young players. We’re experienced, we’ve played in the Champions League. We need to stand up for ourselves and take responsibility at times, and I’m not sure we are always doing that.
“In the Tottenham game we showed a lot of spirit and fight. That’s what the fans want to see more of. We’ve got to do that every week. We’ve been hot and cold, doing it some weeks. Instead of making things happen we have been waiting for things to happen.
“The boss is always there for us and he takes a lot of it on his back. I know people say there’s a lot of pressure because we are not winning things…There are things he won’t say to you [in the press] that he’ll say to us. He’ll have a go at us when he needs to. We want to win something for him.
“He has shown so much faith in us for so many years so we need to repay him. People are looking at him but maybe they need to be looking at the players because we are not producing it. He believes so much in this team…he’d die for the team. And that’s probably what we need to get in our system: we need to be prepared to die for each other. I think that’s what we are missing at the moment.
“When it comes to a championship it doesn’t matter how you play, it’s about results. Look at Man Utd against West Ham: they went in at half-time 2-0 down but they came back and got the win. It didn’t matter how they did it. It’s been a lot like that with them this season. That’s what we need to be doing.
“It’s good to keep the whole team together and I’m sure there’ll be a few additions. A lot of people talk about the defence and the goalkeeper and those issues. But we’ve got top players. We’ve got Thomas Vermaelen coming back, which is great. He was out training today. He’s a great leader. Maybe we need more leaders on the pitch.
“Cesc and Robin are the main two who always try to inspire us. Samir as well. Maybe a few more additions like that.”
Um, i think if my name sake joins then FABREAS will leave. They do not get on…
And GALLAS…what aloss he was this season..Who wouldhave thought that?
I wenger I still TRUST.. Do u still?
@terry henri, what did gallas do this season? nothing thts what spurs won’t even get champions league this year .
with out him at least we got to a cup final and still be in champions leage
“We still lack maturity, experience and calm in important situations.” AW.
Here is what Wenger needs to do. Sell: Almunia-1.5M, Schillachi-3M, Denilson-10M, Ashavin-12M, Rosicky-4M, Bendtner-12M, Chamakh-15M, Abou Diaby 12M and Vela-8M (89.5 + 40M =129.5) :cry:
Bring in Maarten Stekelenburg-12M, Sokho-12M, Moussa Sissoko-10M, Gorkhen Inker-8M, Harzard-25M, Pappis Cisse-13M, One from Radamel Falcao, Edison Cavani or Fernardo Llorient-25M Total-92M, The rest of the saving we love to do can be used to finance the wage budget additions. :-)
This is a winning team that will not affect the youth policy much, and will stabilize the squad and bring in new earnings – from winning actual cups that will even allow Arsenal more earning from gate and merchandize collections. It will hardly lack maturity, experience and calm in IMPORTANT situations. What will it matter if you conceded six goals but scored 15? And it will not change our football principles. All these guys will still play Wenger Ball. 8-)
“We still lack maturity, experience and calm in important situations.” AW.
Here is what Wenger needs to do. Sell: Almunia-1.5M, Schillachi-3M, Denilson-10M, Ashavin-12M, Rosicky-4M, Bendtner-12M, Chamakh-15M, Abou Diaby 12M and Vela-8M (89.5 + 40M =129.5)
Bring in Maarten Stekelenburg-12M, Sokho-12M, Moussa Sissoko-10M, Gorkhen Inker-8M, Harzard-25M, Pappis Cisse-13M, One from Radamel Falcao, Edison Cavani or Fernardo Llorient-25M Total-92M, The rest of the saving we love to do can be used to finance the wage budget additions.
This is a winning team that will not affect the youth policy much, and will stabilize the squad and bring in new earnings – from winning actual cups that will even allow Arsenal more earning from gate and merchandize collections. It will hardly lack maturity, experience and calm in IMPORTANT situations. What will it matter if you conceded six goals but scored 15? And it will not change our football principles. All these guys will still play Wenger Ball.
@nikkogunners,
Oh dear god.
10 M for Denilson???
12 M for Diaby???
12 M for Bendtner???
15 M for Chamakh???
Come on now!
And you want us to spend 92 M??
It is this kind of thing that Wenger and the AKBs latch on and use for their false arguments. Be realistic.
@Fred,
Oh jeez, AKB’s? No Arsenal supporter is actually an acronym. We are all just Arsenal supporters, an we all have both love for our club and legitimaite criticism to make.
Personally I think Wenger should stay for one maybe two more years, if he’s changed and we’re legitimatley challenging again fantastic. If he hasn’t bump him upstairs, simples. But ridiculous valuations of Nick Bendtner and hoping for Mouhrino while pouring vitriol over anyone that dares disagree hurts everyone.
The second thing we’ve got to consider is the consequences of change, Wenger provides us with rock solid stability, one of the prime reasons for keeping him at the club once he’s finished at being manager. If change is what we need, we’ve got to be completley certain that change doesn’t mean a nose dive, loosing champions league football will mean a very differant Arsenal to the one we enjoy right now.
@Scribe,
AKBs proudly wear their acronym. They even hold up banners at the stadium. So don’t worry about ’em. Its always sunny in AKB-land.
Wenger should absolutely NOT stay for “one maybe two more years”. At any other club in the entire planet he would have been sacked 3 years ago. Managers who have achieved far more than he has have been fired for just one or two seasons of failure. We are entering year 7.
Fear of the “consequences of change” is just ridiculous. Wenger was a NOBODY when he came to the Second Most Titled Club in England. Arsenal MADE Wenger. Wenger was a washed up, has-been fooling around in the mighty leagues of mid-90s Japan. He never even won the J-League …. that is how “impressive” he was.
The idea, that Arsenal cant continue without a man that the club MADE is insane and not based on reality.
@Fred,
Well I go to a fair amount of games an I haven’t seen the sign in a while. Please stop with the vitriol. Even the most ardent Wenger fans are calling for change.
I said we need to CONSIDER the consequences of change, not fear them, twisting my words doesn’t help anything.
Arsenal and Wenger and arguably David Dein were a perfect match, we rose together. Arsenal could easily have been left behind if it wern’t for Wenger, the stats don’t lie, top 4 every year since he’s been there, less than a quater before he got here. We are no longer an overacheiving local club but a global brand thats never going to go away.
The reason Arsene’s not been sacked is the Emirates, we took on £400Million of debt and gave him no money to build a squad. Yet here we are with a bright future.
The question is whether Wenger is the right man to take advantage of the massive potential he’s created. We have 100Mil in a contigency fund, but we still a lot of debt and the poor commerical deals we used to finance the stadium. We’re nearly there but not quite yet, whether another coach could keep us where we need to be is questionable, an we NEED to stick together as a club.
However, the footballing side of things need to change, the squad has no heart, how we change that is a question for others, an if it’s new manager, it’s a new manager. If you ask me though the squad is different. Hire men like Keown to be a deffensive coach and Viera to be the first team coach. Above all a man who knows how to install flexibility of approach in the players.
@Scribe,
Ofcourse they no longer have the signs out. They are humiliated by the results. AKBs, AKBs, AKBs, AKBs, AKBs. Its not a perjorative, sorry.
And please STOP talking about constant Top 4 …. what on earth does top 4 (i.e. qualification for a tournament you can NOT win) have to do with anything???
Uptill the early 2000s when UEFA decided to give England up to 4 spots in the CL nobody gave a hoot about finishing between 2 and 4. Why would a team in 1984 struggle hard to finish in the “top 4” when only the champions play in Europe. To qualify for the Cup Winners Cup you needed to WIN the FA cup. The Cup Winners Cup and the UEFA cup then hardly gave any price money. Even the CL then didnt give that much money, so clubs participated just for the honor of being European champions.
So the constant repetition of the top 4 argument is quite brainless aping of Wenger’s lunatic talking point.
And last point, sorry Arsenal were NOT an “overachieving local club” before Wenger came along. We had won the SECOND most tiltes in England. Second only to Liverpool. Arsenal MADE Wenger.
And also, in the 90s, there was NO such thing as “global brand”. There was no internet, the CL wasnt pumping in that much money into the game yet, no cheap travel, not much worldwide merchandise sales, no tours to Asia and America, etc. Almost all European leagues had parity so talent was extremely dispersed. Therefore pretty much all clubs were local.
@Fred,
Second most titles. Small Stadium fairly local support. Most of our titles earned in the thirties. Yes we were an over acheiving local club. Hence all those titles. Yes we were fairly local, hence the smallish stadium and Islignton based support. PROVE ME WRONG. Don’t just deny it. Also deny that there wern’t big and small clubs is equally ridiculous, Barcelona, the Milan clubs, Juventus, Real Madrid, Bayern Munch, Liverpool and United. These were always big clubs, Italian German Spanish and English football all had periods of domination in Europe, the co-efficients go back long enough to proove it. There have always been reigonal clubs and those that trancend their reigon, Arsenal was the former, at the end of the 90’s we became the latter. I’ve been alive long enough to know the club as both, doesn’t sound like you have, though I’m sure you’ll claim otherwise. I’ve lived within a mile of the Arsenal all my life (38), an Holloways still a sh*t whole and Highbury still lovley and red on a Saturday. We moaned before but not like you lot, vicious whiners.
Why the constant top 4? Well think on it this way, if we weren’t constantly in the top would we have any hope of challenging for the title? Answer is no, we wouldn’t be able to sign or keep top players, making it a damn good argument if a tiresome one. Rather than accusing me of brainless apeing consider the finacial idiocy your spouting. Glory requires a solid base if it’s to be maintained. We’re close to acheiving a stable launch pad that can be maintained for generations, frustrating though this may be, the value of what Wenger has helped give us is incalculable, to deny that is just blatant and wilfull ignorance.
Arsenal did not make Wenger. Wenger did not make Arsenal. Stop with that stupid argument, when Wenger came to Arsenal we were going no where fast, flirting with relagation, or do you not remember, pre-96er? Our stadium was fine at the time, I loved it dearly, but within a decade we’d have been trapped in it like Liverpool and Everton. Danny Fizman, David Dein and Arsene Wenger all came together and mooved us forward, it was spectacular, now all that remains is their legacy, the debt we took on to finance it and Wenger.
I have NOT said Wenger shouldn’t change.
I have NOT said I’m happy with the current situation
The man deserves the chance to capitalise on the potential this club now has having taken us through, what a lot of people like to ignore was a very difficult time for the club.
AN if it doesn’t come through we shan’t have nose dived, the coach that replaces him will be comming to one of the top clubs in Europe, with all the recources and prestige that entails. Currently I’d go for Andreas Villas Boas, but I suspect the board will pick and not me, an not you.
Mean time, why not support your club a bit.
@Fred,
@Fred,
Stop twisting yourself in knots.
We had won the title in 89 and 91. We were second in titles ONLY behind Liverpool. Argue the facts till you are red in the face if you like.
Ofcourse even the whole “every club was local 15 years ago” argument flies way over your head.
Oh, there were big clubs alright. Arsenal were the second biggest in England. The only stadium bigger (when all-seater were Old Trafford, Anfield and Wembley and I think the old Hilsborough).
Barcelona were a big club, but guess when they won their FIRST CL???
Again, arguing yourself into a knot. NO GLOBAL CLUB existed till the 2000s – with the advent of technology and the CL. So saying Wenger turned the largest club in London (the city you can charge the highest tickets) into a global club is hilariously head in the sand.
No need adding the “I have been an Arsenal fan all my life and I live right at Highbury” argument. Anybody can be any of those on an internet board. Just ask that guy on here who claims to have been supporting the club since 1932!!! LOL.
Arsenal flirting with relegation? Olala!
Still talking about the “top 4” are we? Get it into your head, top 4 means NOTHING. It is qualification for a competition, it is NOT AN ACHIEVEMENT. Get that into your head!
If we werent in the top 4 we wont have hope of winning the title? We dont have hope of winning it NOW!
I am sure you and the AKBs were amongst those thinking we were actually in a title race this year despite all the glaring signs and structural deficiencies.
Oh here comes the drippy AKB mantra “why not support the club”. I support the club. And I support them by wanting Wenger and the leeching Board gone!
@Fred,
Couple more things, this we MADE Wenger rubbish (how would he have got a job with us if he was a nobody, it’s so stupid) led me to look up his past a bit more, most of us know this but here it is.
AS Monaco
In 1987, Wenger moved to AS Monaco and was appointed as its manager. The club won the 1988 Ligue 1 and the 1991 French Cup. Wenger then signed on Glenn Hoddle, Jurgen Klinsmen and George Weah, some of the top players at that time. Another player recruited to AS Monaco was Strasbourg born Youri Djorkaeff. This 23 year old player then went on to win the 1998 FIFA World Cup, playing for the French national team. Under Wenger’s management of AS Monaco, Youri Djorkaeff was Ligue 1’s best joint goal scorer. He scored 20 goals during the final season that Wenger was with the club.
Bayern Munich shortlisted Wenger for the position of club manager. But as the board at AS Monaco declined to allow Wenger to even speak with the Munich board, he could not take up the position. Nevertheless, a few weeks after the post was filled, AS Monaco let their team manager go.
Grampus Eight
Wenger then shifted to Japanese J League’s Nagoya Grampus Eight. Here he enjoyed a successful tenure of 18 months. With Wenger guiding the club, Grampus Eight went on to win the national Emperor’s Cup. He was also responsible for the club’s rise from being one of the bottom three to that of runners up.
As manager of Grampus Eight, Wenger hired Boro Primorac – former manager of Valenciennes – as his assistant. The manager met Boro Primorac when the latter was in the midst of a match fixing scandal linked to Olympique de Marseille in 1993. Wenger believed that Marseille was acting inappropriately, and supported Primorac fully when he tried to clear his name. Since then, Primorac has remained close to Wenger and is currently the Arsenal first team coach.
I’ve heared of those Bayern Munich Chaps, supposed to be a pretty big club, apparently they wanted him. What a nobody.
We had the second most titles it’s true. How many European titles had we won? Cup winners cup, Fairs Cup, Super Cup. That tends to be the differance. However we’ve yet to improve on that.
@Fred,
Arsenal MADE Wenger!!!
How would we have hired him if he was a nobody??? How was Capello and Ancelloti hired in their first gig by Milan in the 80s. How was van Gaal hired as a nobody by Ajax??
That is a bullshit question. Almost all the top managers in the world were nobodies who a technical director “liked”. Its that simple.
Wenger was a NOBODY when he came to Arsenal. Now, the AKBs claim Arsenal can not survive without him. Hilarious shit.
I LOVE how you neglect to mention his RELEGATION! Ha!
And please dont even mention his stint in Japan. Apart from the fact he never even won the J-League, Japan in the mid nineties was as horrible as League Two is now.
Even now, the league play there is abysmal. I visited Japan last year and decided to take in a game. Let me just say there are college soccer games in the US more entertaining. That is how bad they were.
And what is the point of adding that last paragraph about European trophies? LOL.
Conclusion: Wenger OUT!
@Fred,
@Fred, Please do your own valuations and offer solutions, don’t just express surprise. So far you have said absolutely nothing and any Arsenal supporter knows AW does take advice very well…
The only major problem worrying me is that Wenger looks lost and hopeless as never before.If he is a top manager, he’ll come out of it stronger.
But if he’s not, then you wonder what would happen.
I’ve always loved the calm & composed Arsene but the changed Arsene is the one which I’m starting to hate.
That certainly affects the players who seem to be trying too hard at the moment.
Check my Arsenal blog:
http://delhigunner.wordpress.com/2011/04/25/a-spot-to-fill-which-players-should-arsene-wenger-buy/
Welcome to the new posters and good stuff from some of the usual characters. Interesting writing on the nature of the discussion as well, Vibe and Jroy…..Like I said on the last thread, taking solace in being right all along is a coping mechanism that I can appreciate. At this point I’ll toot my own horn and say that I predicted we were more likely to take less than 15 points from the last 10 matches than we were to take 20+ points. Having earned 7 points with a max of 12 possible remaining I can say I was right!….Booyay! (as they say)…. (But being wrong and having the Arsenal win a little would have be nice too….)
The argument that Wenger should go carries A LOT of urgency after another crap result AND another poor season. Clearly the club needs change and a new manager (esp. a younger one) with a good team of assistants to work on the technical aspects which need help (as Fred rightly suggests) might be the way to go. A younger, less established manager might also give a fairer shot to our existing players (competition for spots….) than somebody more established with transfer targets already in mind….Kicking AW upstairs might be an acceptable compromise, of sorts, for some…..
That being said, (and as I said in the other thread) it seems very unlikely that Arsenal, even with new ownership, will be breaking down the model of youth scouting, development and longer contracts and start going for big transfer signings instead. I could be wrong but I just don’t see a major clearout and a splashing of cash. Retaining the better players will continue to be a priority. Given our (frankly woeful) results it’s hard to say just who those players are and how to value them, but I’m pretty sure that’s what Kronke will be having Gazidis and Wenger doing over the summer. Also, given that the manager is on one of those longer, higher paying contracts himself, I don’t see us “taking a loss” there either.
All that being said (apologies for my loquacious tendencies, but I see I’m not alone….) it’s still hard to argue that the manager shouldn’t be held accountable. There WILL be protests and many will be unsatisfied until Wenger steps down (or up). Simply hoping the manager changes seems fruitless. Rather we must hope he is forced into changes by the new owner and the other pressures that are brought to bear.
In the end the argument for Wenger staying seems to be more practical than passionate; that “staying the course” (with a few tweaks) is a better use of resources than throwing babies out with bathwater…..Much as Man City and Chelsea will likely be better teams next season (a problem for Arsenal, by the way….) if they keep their current Italian managers and the majority of their squads, neither manager (nor squad) has exactly bowled over their fans (nor owners) with their success this year nor the promise for a world conquering future.
Finally, I gotta agree that the NBA analogy seems better than the NFL. If anything the bigger teams in bigger markets with National and International followings (Celtics and Lakers, esp.) have a natural advantage, which only gets reinforced over time. We’re already there to a certain extent (for better or worse) being in a great city with a modern stadium and getting those extra matches in the CL. Too bad the weather isn’t better (like it is in Miami, which landed Bron-Bron over the Knicks….) and that the tax structure isn’t more lenient on our man-children. But DAG is right too, in that we don’t really need to win as long as we’re competitive for the only trophies that matter: the CL (most important) and the league. IMO we weren’t truly competitive in either this season but we aren’t woefully far off either.
I still predict that television will continue to lead the development of the game and that (eventually) a European Super League will be formed, hopefully with some type of promotion (and relegation) from the larger domestic leagues and entry to the champions of the smaller ones. The top teams will be more motivated to remain in the big league and bigger squads and parity among the teams (including “fair-play” rules and salary caps and other leveling devices) will be the rule. And sorry, worrying about ticket prices is a lovely anachronism, but working class people (and their kids) have been priced out already. In 10 or 20 years no one will think twice about paying 2 or 3 or more pounds per minute for a seat at the stadium and in-stadium supporters of the biggest clubs will be fat-cats (or rich neutrals) who can fly to Milan or Madrid for the weekend, with the rest of us just happy to watch (every match) in HD…..
Whether or not you think this is fanciful, The Board and Wenger are clearly thinking this way and getting to the “show” is priority #1. Lip service will be paid, some moves (perhaps even some “ambitious” ones) will happen this summer but expecting big changes, including dropping the manager, seems about as likely as us winning the league did six matches ago…..
@highburyterracesteve, if there were ever a “Super League”… who the hell would watch the regular leagues? what would the point be?
If there is relegation from a Super League… then every single league would have to be involved from a scheduling stand-point… and also there would have to be some sort of Salary Cap.
IF there were a SUPER LEAGUE, and I doubt it happens any time soon… there could be no simple relegation scenario… travel, schedules, money, would make it CHAOS to govern.
To the argument about how often AW has kept us in the top 4: I’m of the opinion that it doesn’t really matter. I don’t care. Every fan is different, some probably do like that fact, but I wouldn’t mind finishing out of the top 4 now and then if in exchange we had a manger who went all out for the title. In other words, I’d rather be a fan of a team that could realistically finish anywhere from 1 to 10 than a team that could realistically finish anywhere from 2 to 4.
And to address the claims of those that say changing managers won’t matter b/c we’ll still have a Board that doesn’t expect a title win: anyone who becomes the manager of a top European football club is most likely to be a very competitive person. They are SELF-motivated, meaning they will desire victory even if their superiors don’t desire or demand it. Though I don’t disagree that part of the current problems are attributable to the Board.
DAG, interesting article, and the comments are interesting as always. But this is the second “Wenger should stay” post in the past 2 weeks… just out of curiosity, will there be a “Wenger should go” article? This is a serious question, and in all honesty, I’m not sure you really need one to either (a) be fair and balanced, or (b) be informative. Both of those points are pretty much taken care of as a result of the multitude of anti-Wenger posts which make up the majority of replies to every article on YAMA.
i note with interest that a manager with real Arsenal blood in him is now available. maybe david o’leary can solve all of our problems!
@jroybower,
Wow, Mr. Thin Skin, a truly stunning example of the “intelligent, balanced arguments” you moan about all the time! :-)
@Fred, clearly i forgot the winky face to note sarcasm.
still waiting for an answer mr thick skull…
@jroybower,
Haha, more “intelligent, balanced arguments” from Thin Skin.
Being on the completely WRONG side of a fact based argument with Mr. Thick Skull does not reflect that well on you by the way. Wouldn’t that make you Mr. Thicker Skull? HA!
Like I said, lighten up!
PS: What question? I really hope it isnt one of those questions put to NASA by moon landing denialists.
@Fred, the question was simlple and direct Fred. you contend that the board has taken massive amounts of money out of the club that could have been invested in the team had they not been such incompetent greedy bastards (i’m paraphrasing). tell me, how much money has the board taken out of the club in the last 5 years?
an off the cuff sarcastic remark meant to illicit a few comments about the merit of o’leary or some other manager (since change is all the rage amongst many here) is somehow the wrong side of an argument. huh?
@jroybower,
Where did I say the board has taken massive amounts directly out of the club?? Don’t make stuff up. Its unseemly.
I said, the board has not invested a penny in over 30 years. Its a fact.
They inherited their shares or bought them cheap and are maximizing the SHARE price for the DEFINITE SALE of their shares by instead hording cash in the club coffers (to increase the club’s valuation at its sale). They made a freaking killing from Kroenke.
All the while pervesely keeping the club alive enough to milk the CL cash cow. But not allowing the club invest enough to actually go for a trophy and make the fans (who BANKROLL the club) happy.
No need to pretend you don’t understand.
The board are GREEDY leaches. Definitely not incompetent – they are making out with personal profits of up to 100%.
————————————————–
The argument is the “Wenger is right/Wenger is the right man” argument.
You are clearly on the wrong side. You know it because the facts have smacked you in the face several times this season alone.
But I appreciate your effort to put on a brave face about it. Other AKBs are simply “reading but not commenting”.
@Fred, from the horses mouth:
“Fred Reply:
April 22nd, 2011 at 18:22
@jroybower,
…
“None of the Arsenal shareholders have invested a penny in the last 30 years. But they take money out.”
…
so for the last time, how much money did the the shareholders/board take out of the club over the last 5 years?
as for the AW debate, it doesn’t matter what your or my opinion is because neither of our votes count for beans.
the fact is we are third in the league with the second best offense and fourth best defense with a bunch of poorly coached over paid hacks who consistenly find new ways to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory and concede regularly on set pieces. how does that get fixed? not sure, but at least one of those issues needs to be resolved.
@Fred, from the horses mouth:
“Fred Reply:
April 22nd, 2011 at 18:22
@jroybower,
…
“None of the Arsenal shareholders have invested a penny in the last 30 years. But they take money out.”
…
so for the last time, how much money did the the shareholders/board take out of the club over the last 5 years?
as for the AW debate, it doesn’t matter what your or my opinion is because neither of our votes count for beans.
the fact is we are third in the league with the second best offense and fourth best defense with a bunch of poorly coached over paid hacks who consistenly find new ways to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory and concede regularly on set pieces. how does that get fixed? not sure, but at least one of those issues needs to be resolved.
@Fred,
Are you retarded? They keep cash in the club as assets – unspent, which increases the value of the club. They then sell their shares for profits exceeding 100% on their investment or inheritance. No you cant physically take cash out of a non-private companies coffers and NO one said that. We had a full argument over that 2 threads ago.
Pretend you dont understand basic economics.
If the club had spent just 15 M more per transfer window in the last 4 years, we would have still broken even BUT the valuation of the club would have lower. Reducing the value of their share sales.
GREED at the expense of the fans of the HIGHEST tickets in the WORLD. And the AKBs lap it up and defend them.
All this was explained in the Guardian article I referred you to 2 threads ago. Go read it before responding to me again.
Second best offense, fourth best defense???
Hahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahhahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahahhahhahahhaaaahahahhahahahahahahahhahaahhahahahahahahahhahahahahhahaahaaahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahah !!!!!
@Fred, clearly i forgot the winky face to note saracasm.
still waiting for an anwer mr thick skull…
This is from AW after the Bolton game:
“If you can convince me those principles are wrong, I’m ready. However, I feel we are right to try to play football the proper way. When you don’t win, your principles are questioned but I have the distance to know what is right and wrong. If something is wrong, it is not the problem of playing football. We just have to become more mature in some of the situations when we look too frail.”
Let’s analyze his thinking relative to how Arsenal performs.
“I feel we are right to play football the right way” – we are an extraordinary team playing in this swamp called EPL, where all the others are doing it the WRONG way. All the others are only concerned about winning, but I want to play nice. Let’s raise our children in a non competitive atmosphere which will nurture their development.
Wonderful if you’re a father, BUT you’re fucking not, you’re a coach of a sports team, which by definition must be competitive.
“I have the distance to know what is right and wrong” – I can be very objective and fix problems easily, you see. The fact that the SAME ISSUES show up year after year, must be an illusion because they just cannot escape me GOD seating up there and KNOWING everything.
“If something is wrong, it is not the problem of playing football” – football is what I decide, is a continuous tiki taka
played on the streets of Marseilles, without defenses, where a nutmeg or a back heal is worth a goal. We don’t do corner kicks because 3 corners = 1 goal. Playing aerial is forbidden, so we do not need to prepare for crosses. We are not going to prepare to cross either because that is ungentlemanly. Set plays cannot be executed because our streets in Marseilles are not wide enough. We play like Barca but much nicer and softer, without any of the dirty work like winning headers in the box, or ganging on the opposition player to get the ball back.
“We just have to become more mature in some of the situations when we look too frail.” – just wait people, it is only a matter of time, and my “children” will all grow up and become men. I know best, it is only a matter of feeble frailties. What 52% of the goals against us were from set play? No that cannot be because I would have identified the issue and fix it. I didn’t fix it, it doesn’t exist.
And you want to give him more time?
He CANNOT change, he is GOD and GOD doesn’t do change.
As the usual suspects have said – he won’t change. This is not just mindless negativity, it’s conclusions borne from studying his statements over the years and his overall make up. In short, the Emirates youth project ignited a radicalist, egotistical streak that won’t die.
I called it four years ago. Watched him buy the likes of Song, Diaby, Denilson in between 05-07 – at the start of his ‘smart ass’ years when he was so convinced of his own greatness that he thought he could polish any rough diamond ala Fabregas – and knew then that he would stick with them until the end of his tenure. Statements made about those players during their formative years indicated that Wenger was indeed aware of their flaws, but yet he still gave them a free ride into the first team. He acknowledged their weaknesses, weighed it all up, and once again he came to the conclusion that being proved right about certain players was more important than Arsenal’s success. Of course he glossed this up with a load of old clap trap about developing players who love the club etc, and then signing Andrey Arshavin :)
Another thing ; Wenger may change his policy in regards to buying more experience etc, however he cant change himself. He can’t suddenly purge the team of his own idiosyncratic traits and give them an F5 refresh make over. This team are a startling reflection of his own jittery, indecisive, self-doubting antics on the touchline. The contradiction of supposedly higher moral values and calm on the training ground ,and the sulky petulance on match day ; brewing and simmering all the time, and making us more and more a mirror image of him the longer he stays.
So Wenger changing policy is neither here nor there IMO, as there is only so much that can be done in one transfer window, or even two. The question is can he re-invent himself and then dis-infect the squad of its ‘Wengerisms’. Looking at him become increasingly more paranoid, neurotic and deluded, does that look likely?
@Mazza,
The third and fourth graphs, in particular, are right on. The observation about how Wenger’s performance on the touchline is similarly acted out on the pitch…really interesting.
@vibe4arsenal,
Someone actually brought that up at a press conference last week and Wenger, quelle surprise, couldn’t see the connection.
I would say it’s the biggest issue of all, and why personnel issues seem a bit irrelevant. New players are like a drug, they work well for a spell, but then the effect wears off and initial most pressing problem rises to the surface again. In this case the culture of bottling.
@DAG,
Enjoyable, reasoned, well thought out and written article which I agree with for most part.
The only difference is that I don’t think Wenger will change until we self destruct and fall out of the CL. Currently that is the only basis of success he can rationalize. When that goes, he will truly realized he has “failed”.
My greatest problem with Wenger at this time is his inability to do the small things which can mean so much to success. Instead, he is looking at the grand picture but not at the details which are going to make it successful or not.
The little things like watching film, basing tactics on the team you are playing, coaching of set pieces, defensive and offensive rotation, team selection, team makeup, having your tall “striker” taking corners, all seem to have been swept under the rug. Instead, we have excellent players who are mainly midgets and built for playing centrally, playing in all different positions. No true striker/poacher. Small, mobile CB’s who struggle to defend in the EPL . A classic case of fitting square pegs into round holes.
It has been amazing that with this lack of classical coaching techniques we have managed to stay in the top 4.
Currently, we are winning in spite of Arsene rather than because of him. Which top football organization do you know has no defensive coach, no tactical coach, a GK coach who does not travel, no Director of football operations and a Coach/Manager who leads every training session personally.
What drives someone to believe they can effectively manage every football detail of such a large organization? That’s just POOR management.
@Caribkid,
Wenger thinks it’s all or nothing when it comes to that stuff. You either go all in or you don’t. Of course he probably points out some obvious stuff but in general he likes let them express themselves, and not clutter their mind with too much information.
A good idea when dealing with thoroughly seasoned pros like Adams, Keown, Dixon etc but players like Clichy, Song, Diaby? Recipe for disaster.
I’ll be very interested to see Wilshere’s development over the next few seasons. I seriously wonder whether Wenger is the right man to forsee his development. Constantly surrounded with midfield men who switch off and get complacent, and get away with it.
im very much already seeing the clown wenger gone from arsenal. if he still in charge in next season, we pretty much doom again, dejavu or watever u call it, if he still in arsenal next season, sorry , i better support chelsea or totemham.
Arsenal FC are such a classy organization.
In a decisive match we “graciuosly” allowed Tamir Cohen to score against us, just to have him pay homage to his late father.
All this under the management of our classy genius manager, with the help of his classy pair of center halves.
I strongly believe that anything short of changing the manager will not change anything.
Wenger’s actions, for many years now, show a very determined agenda to build a team, on his terms, without taking in consideration the EPL environment, style of play or any reasonable advice. Because of no oversight, from the club since David Dein left, Wenger was allowed to pretty much do whatever he wanted.
If he is judged by taking the team to 14 consecutive ECL/s in a row, then forget about all yhe BS regarding how talented, gifted, hard working and mentaly strong the team is.
I wouldn’t mind if he came out and said: look qualifying for the ECL is all we can do with this squad, everything else is not realistic and please judge us by this. He instead kept BS-ing us with false hopes for many trophies.
The reality is that in the last 2-3 years the team is losing its character, the nice and spectacular football, because of extremely suspect transfer policies, and because of the manager completely disregarding the realities of EPL: physical play, aerial play, superclubs, speed, etc.
Since the French speaking countries are not producing as many talented and CHEAP players as before, AW’s transfer policy is an utter disaster. He is buying second rate players or aging former stars who most of the time don’t perform up to par: Squillaci, Koscielny, Sylvestre, Chamakh, Senderos, Djourou, etc. Yes Djourou.
Why doesn’t he do the obvoius and get at least two
pieces of Eastern European raw steel and finish it, like Ivanovici, Vidic, Skrtel etc, that part of the world is renowned for producing great center backs, and relatively cheap. I guess the reason is that their French is quite poor.
I cannot even hope for some mighty Brazilians.
AW will not change, he actually started believing his fantasies about mental toughness, player quality, genius manager etc.
If he is not replaced Arsenal will have a more and more difficult time making the ECL because of squad quality.
The current team is already condemned to being a loser team, but there are still some players who could be saved for the club like Wilshere and Ramsey, maybe Sczesczny.
The rest, except Arshavin and perhaps Cesc, are resigned with being perpetual losers.
All this because the manager.
Perhaps the new UEFA rules will estompate the abyss between the squads of Arsenal and the other major clubs, but I wouldn’t bank on it because our manager is spending the money badly anyhow: Vela, Denilson, Bendtner, Diaby.
People, the guy lost it completely, it’s becoming a tragedy to see him on the sideline and to listen to his aberations.
Will Kroenke replace him?
Probably not as long as fans come to the Emirates, pay through their noses for mediocre draws, and the team keeps making the ECL with minimal costs.
For many of us, in the US who probably will never make it to the Emirates, the attraction is the spectacular football but that is being compromised by the low quality of players employed by Arsene Wenger. Of course there are some exceptions but even 1 or 2 bad apples are too much in a team sport.
How long are we going to wait for RVP to have a full season?
How long are we going to accept that 3 able, second rate, center backs is all that we can hope for?
How long will take for Walcott, Diaby, Vela, Gibbs, Nasri, etc to become GOOD, RELIABLE players?.
How long are we going to wait for 1-2 high quality center backs, 1-2 GOOD physical strong and over average height holding midfielders?
How long will it take to get a poacher?
WITH ARSENE WENGER , at AFC, it will take forever.
Here’s the thing – the whole Wenger won’t change argument is quite laughable – only because we just don’t know do we?
You can say that he hasn’t changed in 6 years. True. But he also had a plan he was trying to stick to. Call it egotisitcal if you want. Many businesses do that and sports is a business.
You may not like, hell I don’t like it but its a fact. Wenger created a plan and it was flawed in one aspect its over reliance in one specifc area youth.
But like any proud person, admitting we are wrong is no easy task. I suspect and have no proof that Wenger dared to not go back on his plan because he didn’t want to be told he was wrong.
Well, again whether that is right or wrong – I would argue you become more of a hero if you immediately come out and say it didn’t work but we will fix to make it work. Now it looks like he is just reacting to the pressure.
given the general discourse on your blog, i don’t even need to read the comments to know who and what will be said given the title, let alone content of your post. being flogged for a measured and defensible opinion on your own site, continually and without cease, is sadomasochistic. reasonable men can disagree, but you can’t reason with everyone.
@jroybower,
Awwwwwwwh ….. how sweet and kind of you ….. why dont you head to ArsenalAmerica.com where they have 2-3 people viewing their pages per day (probably all associated with the site) and ZERO comments and lots of “interesting” articles about Arsenal and sing your kumbayas with ’em.
If a contrary argument point is the equivalent of “being flogged” then you are probably too thin-skinned to venture into high law, engineering, business, politics, media, management, medicine or sports.
I’m pretty sure on average our spouses/partners “flog” us with far more vitriol than anything you’ll find on this site.
Lighten up, AKBs are WROOOOOOONG!
@Fred, hey its a free world and you are entitled to your opinion, just as DAG is to his. however, you and band of merry men seem intent on hammering down on anyone who will listen that your opinion is the only right one and that anything to the contrary is moronic. to be fair you have many valid points, but so does DAG. how does one reconcile that I can agree with both of you on many points, and disagree on others, and be “labeled” anything?
my only real issue is that you can’t or won’t accept/consider any opinion that is contrary to yours. rather than furthering what could be an interesting and lively discussion you proclaim that you are right everyone else is wrong and kill the conversation before it even begins.
i’ll note that in the previous post you failed to respond to my very specific and direct question. since it was “buried” i’ll ask it once again. (apologies DAG way off topic) please tell me exactly how much the board has taken out of the club in the last 5 years.
finally, i’ll also note that your attempted derisitory comments meant to disarm the reader, sway opinion, or get a rise from me fail on so many levels. its a classic proaganda technique used to obfuscate intilligent and reasoned discourse by labeling everything and everyone. also, i’ll point out you know nothing about me, my education, career, or temperment. your personal comments only cause me to chuckle and shake my head becuase i know you don’t have a clue. if i had to guess your career based on your comments, well…
@Fred, hey its a free world and you are entitled to your opinion, just as DAG is to his. however, you and band of merry men seem intent on hammering down on anyone who will listen that your opinion is the only right one and that anything to the contrary is moronic. to be fair you have many valid points, but so does DAG. how does one reconcile that I can agree with both of you on many points, and disagree on others, and be “labeled” anything?
my only real issue is that you can’t or won’t accept/consider any opinion that is contrary to yours. rather than furthering what could be an interesting and lively discussion you proclaim that you are right everyone else is wrong and kill the conversation before it even begins.
i’ll note that in the previous post you failed to respond to my very specific and direct question. since it was “buried” i’ll ask it once again. (apologies DAG way off topic) please tell me exactly how much the board has taken out of the club in the last 5 years.
finally, i’ll also note that your attempted derisitory comments meant to disarm the reader, sway opinion, or get a rise from me fail on so many levels. its a classic proaganda technique used to obfuscate intilligent and reasoned discourse by labeling everything and everyone. also, i’ll point out you know nothing about me, my education, career, or temperment. your personal comments only cause me to chuckle and shake my head becuase i know you don’t have a clue. if i had to guess your career based on your comments, well…
@jroybower,
JROY,
The Wenger defenders who now choose to read more than they post were hammered down, ultimately, by their own failed arguments. Just as is happening now to Wenger himself.
As I’ve said before, for a long time the arguing back and forth was over matters of opinion.
Was the Youth Experiment a good idea or bad?
Were mistakes being made in regards to not strengthening the team up the middle?
At GK?
Was Wenger a Man of Vision, whose grand plan might take 5 years to come to fruition? The perfect fusion of Football suss and economic sense, who could create a winning side that also held the moral (fiscal) high ground?
Or was he a Man of Ego, who was determined to cement an imagined legacy of spotter of young talent like no other? A poor tactician with a wrong-headed conception that style points somehow count in the league table? Who insisted he knew better than everyone else and would PROVE it?
When I first started on AA in ’06, sides were already forming. Over the subsequent years, as the patterns have continued and the results remained the same, those of us who felt that Arsene DID NOT know best saw our opinions reflected in fact more and more often.
You ever take the wrong side of an argument? It happens, right? You’re really, really sure of your opinion debating against someone who is equally passionate about theirs? But even though the evidence is mounting in your favor, they continue to argue? They continue call you names and say that *you* don’t understand what you’re seeing?
And then, finally, when the evidence seems just about inarguable, rather than acknowledge you might have been right all along, they simply walk away? Because that’s easier than just admitting they were wrong?
That’s what’s happened here the last few years. And as much as you would like to make victims of people that don’t even have the heart to admit, anonymously, that they might have been on the wrong side of a debate, they’d rather skulk and sulk and say nothing. Their choice.
I am 100% sure if the season had turned out differently, they’d all be out in full flower, pointing fingers at the ‘doomer’ idiots who didn’t have faith. And crowing that, as they always insisted, Arsene Knew!!! The team has IMPROVED!!! Just like they said!!!!
But, alas…
…when that’s you’re only argument, it looks damn foolish right now. And that’s why they’re not bothering to make it.
Never fear, for those of us who bother to learn from all sorts of history, they’ll be back. And making the same, fervent arguments they always do. But they haven’t been convincing for years now and I’m not sure why anyone would be expected to pretend there are, just to fulfill your sense of what a good debate should be.
After all, there are still people who’ll argue we didn’t really land on the moon or that Sadaam actually had weapons of Mass Destruction or that the current president isn’t a US citizen.
Just because you CAN have two sides of just about any conversation, doesn’t mean both sides ALWAYS carry equal weight. Or that it’s a conversation worth continuing with.
@vibe4arsenal, excellent points vibe. and sure, i lose plenty of arguments, just ask my wife.
i’m not really arguing for or against wenger or AFC plc or the board. but i do like to hear lots of opinions on many sides of a topic as it helps inform my own opinion about something and even can change my opinion occasionally. i think there is plenty to learn from listening to people, even if i don’t agree with them and even if they are just plain wrong. it helps give perspecitve which is a good thing. THAT’s why i’d like this to be a place where people can express opinions without being shouted down or taunted. i know there are other blogs out there where if you do get out of line you do get banned. full credit for DAG for not being that way.
on a few of your points:
was the youth policy a good or bad idea? i think the results are mixed with more strikeouts and than homeruns to be sure, but investing in youth is an important part of a club’s operations. depending on it, well…
an important question to consider night be whether the decision to go with youth was by choice or neccesity. i don’t think it was 100% one or the other because it was probably a little bit of both. its hard to argue it was the cheapest option given our wage bill. some players clearly haven’t developed the way we would have liked. does ego play a part, we wouldn’t be human if it didn’t. given the pyramid nature of professional sports if you can even turn out 5-10% of the players you attempt to develop into marketable talent of any kind you’d probably be doing pretty good. in that sense the youth academy seems to generally be doing its job well as we seem to get 1 maybe 2 prospects each year for the first team. i don’t see that part of it as bad policy.
wenger is batting pretty close to 0 on goalkeepers. sneezy seems like he might have the right stuff. if he was the weakest link in our defense i might be okay with that and have him learn by fire as i’d know that the defenders in front of him would keep him out of the stickiest situations more often than not. but you can’t have 2/3 of your defence as “might” be good enough and that seems to be the real issue (other than coaching as CK rightly points out).
frankly the wenger and board out after every game is getting a little old, surely there will be plenty of time for that in the off season. when we won’t even have games to talk about. of couse the way we’ve been playing there haven’t really been a lot of bright spots to talk about either…
@jroybower,
I appreciate that you’re trying to be even handed. Just as I appreciate that DAG is trying his best to continue to fly the Wenger flag. And I don’t think it’s masochistic on his part at all. Disagree as I might, believe it or not, I appreciate that he’s at least speaking up. Particularly right now when so many others (here) with that mindset have chosen to retreat. Gotta have something to kick against. ;-)
But even with your attempts to be even handed, reading what you actually think, you appear to agree with prevailing wind here more than you don’t. And, as I said, I really only disagree with the part of your premise that suggests some people here have been treated unfairly. There’s been childish, internet MB behavior on both sides, for sure. But as much as you may want to get on Fred for his style of debate, he’s been right on the facts for some time. Hell, once upon a time I got on Maz for being (what I felt at the time) was too rough with ideas he didn’t agree with. But Maz has been right longer than most. He doesn’t say c*** as often as I suspect he thinks it, and he’s still right.
I’m saying beyond the style of individual posters, is the content. And in there an argument has been well and truly lost. And for those who lost, it’s been a case of insult added to injury. Because the club they love is being dragged down by the Manager they love and argued for so vehemently. As Maz points out, Wenger infects anyone who gets too close. So maybe some YAMAites are currently down with a case Can’t-admit-wrong-itis. It’s not fatal, just blinding.
In that way, it’s always been a little easier for the rest of us. If we had been wrong, AKBers would be rubbing trophies in our faces right now. And we would be just great with that.
;-)
@vibe4arsenal,
And for the record, I never lose sight of the things I have been flat out WRONG about on here. Two of the most glaring being
1. my confusing Almunia’s shot-stopping reflexes with the talent (and brains) of an all-around-GK.
2. When I suggested Carlos Vela would be the next big thing, I did not anticipate it would be in a pie eating contest.
@vibe4arsenal,
Ha Ha, you’ve sensed the gritting of teeth. It’s been hard I have to say.
Although I might undo all my good work in one swoop over the next few weeks in a hate-fuelled rant. Arsene has that ability.
@vibe4arsenal,
Actually, a good spleen cleaning Mazzonian rant would be welcomed right about now. I suspect it’s T-Minus United result and counting.
@jroybower,
Boooyah, excellent response by vibe!
Exactly …. like we can sit down and have an “intelligent” argument about whether there was a moon landing or not.
The MO for AKBs now is to try to pipe down or delay the argument. Some blogs are actually begging their commenters to wait till the end of the season – hoping for a few wins before then to dull the anger/frustration a bit.
Like I said before you are way too thin skinned. Lighten up.
AKBs are WROOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG!
@Fred, “wrong” is so definitive when we are talking about shades of grey. lets just agree that everyone has their own utility function and leave it at that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility
so, you have a “Why Wenger Should Stay” thread and… now this one about “say no to managerial change”.
Really.
REALLY?
How about SAY NO TO MEDIOCRITY?
or Say NO to being given the same SH*T over and over, at higher prices.
How about “Some Sheep Never Change”?
What in god’s name makes you think Arsene Wenger is remotely capable of change? Even after what we have witnessed this year in another epic collapse, he keeps spewing out the same tired cliche’s and same bullshite non-sense over and over again.
But you hold out hope he’ll change.
WHY?
What is more likely, Wenger changing, or Arsenal repeating the same crap for a 7th year with higher ticket prices, more star players sold in the Summer, and more promises of the wonderful young players coming good next time?
I don’t know if I can be less interested in the Arsenal ON THE PITCH than I was this season. So many of us knew not only the problems, because they were the same as the last few years problems that were never properly addressed… but we knew Arsenal were a paper lion that would fold up like an accordian when it mattered.
Its SAD to watch. Especially because it was so easy to see…
Cesc likely to go, nobody of note likely to come in… and somehow that’s going to be the lead up to another exciting season in the Prem for the fans? with ticket prices going up, probably merchandise going up as well… someone has to keep the profits sky-rocketing. Selling Cesc for 30 Million isn’t going to be enough! We need MORE!!
Wenger AND the Board… OUT … NOW…
I hope they march on the damned new palace and light the freaking thing on fire.
Just arrogance and greed running the show at the Emirates right now…
@stag133,
Stag last time I checked it was my blog and what topics are covered are up to my discretion.
I have solcitied on a number of occassions asking people to write a well thought argument for why Wenger should go.
Noone takes it up – even from the vapid anti-Wenger groups. Why is that? I don’t see anyone here offering to do it.
Secondly, I also said at the beginning of my piece, the last few pro-wenger threads have been done by guest writers. This is the first time I have ever laid out from my own perspective.
@DaAdminGooner, Freudian slip….I think you meant rabid, but wrote vapid….
Hmmm…..wery interesting…..
@DaAdminGooner, DAG.
Seriously… my question about topics is RHETORICAL.
You do your thing.
I honestly can’t see for the life of me how there aren’t 100,000 fans at the stadium protesting… but I can only hope that the Black Scarf crew that you mentioned just BLOWS UP and the Arsenal Football Club GET THE MESSAGE.
The analogy to the Patriots and, in fact, the entire NFL is entirely fallacious.
Aside from the fact you’re ignoring their undefeated 07 regular season, in which they lost only to my beloved Giants in perhaps the biggest SB upset ever, the NFL is nothing like the PL.
The NFL, by design, has the actual parity that some misapplied to the Prem this year. The NFL has a salary cap and draft structure that makes it possible for the worst one season to be first the next season. Teams such as the Cardinals, the Bolton of the NFL, can actually compete for the Championship.
In the Prem, it’s the same 3 or 4 teams competing. Every. Single. Year. And of those 3/4, one has consistently outclassed the rest. Because they don’t have serious competition when it comes to WINNING.
Simply keeping one of the richest clubs in THE WORLD in the Top Four of its thin league (from a WINNING perspective) is not that big a deal. It’s time we stopped treating it as such.
Add that to the fact that there is ZERO evidence Wenger will change, and I don’t see much of an argument anymore.
This wasn’t about who wins or not – it was how people perceive success. The Patriots regardless of what the rest of the league does around them are always held up as the model club. . . especially in terms of how it is run.
In that case the analogy is bang on.
@DaAdminGooner,
It wasn’t about who wins or not? Sorry, but your point began with a question of when was the last time the Pats won the SB. So you started out making it about winning.
From there, again, the NFL is not the Premier League. For the reasons I mentioned, it is much more of an accomplishment maintaining a certain, winning consistency in the NFL. Belechik is impressive because he manages to replace significant parts, year after yea,, and keep the Pats (actual, not pretend) viable contenders all within the NFL’s cap structure.
The Prem isn’t the NFL. Wenger isn’t Belechick. And the Gunners aren’t the Patriots.
Other than that, bang on. ;-)
@vibe4arsenal,
Boooyah!
+1
@ DAG:
Why do you (and others) torture yourself.
Wenger will NOT change! Every season, optimists keep on saying “dont worry, Wenger will changeÄ. HE WILL NOT!!!
You will find out on September 1.
He has to go. Now.
—————————————————————
And PLEASE, for the love of god, stop talking about historical “top 4” placing. Before 2001, being number 3 or 4 meant as much as being number 10.
What on earth does “top 4” mean. Why would placing 2rd, 3rd or 4th in 1961 or 1943 matter to anybody????
If not for the Champions League and the qualification and the MONEY (for the board members delight), 2nd, 3rd and 4th mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
I really wish the CL would go back to the CHAMPIONS only format they had up to the late 90s, so that leachers like the Arsenal board can be left out in the cold.
So please, stop with the top 4 argument. Thats disingenius.
————————————————-
Also, you cant compare the NE Patriots or any American franchise with Euro football. They are run completely differently. And almost EVERY team is relatively equal in strength. Come September (if there is no striker) ALL 32 franchises have a chance of actually making the Superbowl!
In that sort of set up actually winning the Superbowl once every decade is actually a solid accomplishment.
The closest American comparison to European soccer is the NBA.
I hold out hope on the change front because at my core I believe people can change up until the last possible moment. It is a classic flaw of mine.
I hold out hope for you too. . .
@DaAdminGooner,
LOL. No need. Wenger is far gone. I hold out hope you join the “realistic” side soon. Wenger will NEVER change! He will NEVER win at Arsenal again. Once milk goes bad, you throw it out. Wenger is BAD milk.
It is this “we are always in top 4” talk that has me really wishing the Wenger Girls collapse spectacularly from the top 4 this season, so that we never have to hear that incredible excuse again.
What on earth are the Wenger Girls doing in the CL anyway? Are we looking to win it?? Besides it is called the CHAMPIONS League – not the “French **** Club Everybody Is A Winner” Boyscout Invitational.
edited by DAG. I am cleaning up the language.
@Fred,
Too funny. I was thinking ‘Fred HAS changed. Look at how he’s easing up on the F bombs.’
Then I got to the Editor;’s note. :-))
I am trying to cull it back a bit – especially since I suspect things will be oh so “enjoyable” in the Arsenal kingdom for the next few months.
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Please stop this whole narrative that nobody can plausibly replace Wenger. And no, the replacement for Wenger does not have to be a well-known manager (even the non-AKBs) keep naming guys like Hiddink, etc.
Most managers at top clubs were unknowns before they were plucked from obscurity. In Italy especially, the big clubs specialize in recently retired midfielders/defenders or complete unknowns. Barca have frequently done the same. Same situation in most of Germany and Europe.
Mourinho was a complete journeyman before Porto plucked him in 2002. Allegri was a random Calgiari coach before Milan plucked him. Leonardo had NO experience … he coaches Inter now. Guardiola had ONE year of experience. Capello, Arrigo Sacchi, Ancelloti, Van Gaal, Gus Hiddink, Rijkaard, De Boer and Cruyff all had minimal to NO experience whatsoever before they got plucked from obscurity or playing retirement.
Even the Wanker, was a relative nobody when he came to the SECOND MOST TITLED club in England. He was known only by some French as a lovable loser. Arsenal MADE Wenger.
So we need to stop this nonsense that we must go for some well-known (by every fan) manager. There are lots of good, understated managers in Europe. What is needed is a saavy technical director (like David Dein) who can go pluck them.
We need a young, ambitious, dynamic manager who plays ground based, attacking football and who is a “technocrat” (deeply immersed in the technical side of things including tactics).
I personally like the look of Mirko Slomka, Ralf Rangnick, Jurgen Klopp, Michel Preud-honne, Rudi Garcia, Claude Puel and even Didier Deschamps (why not?!).
They are all young, hungry and play ground-based attacking football. And I am sure there are others like that around Europe that a really good football director can suss out.
And a LOT of them have achieved MORE than Wenger did before he came to Arsenal.
Also, we could decide to just look inwards and go for a former Arsenal player or one of those in our setup already.
Steve Bould or Dennis Bergkamp, can be paired with a experienced, technical assistant manager.
Those two have FAR more experience than Pep Guardiola did when he took over Barca. Or than De Boer at Ajax or Leonardo at Milan and Inter, etc.
Infact a lot of attacking teams are hiring from within.
The talk is that when Guardiola moves on, Barca are looking at Luis Enrique, their old right-winger – and current youth manager (their Steve Bould).
So lets please disabuse ourselves of the “there is nobody else out there”.
@Fred,
Fred point out in my article where there is noone out there to replace Wenger? As a matter of fact early on I say that argument is a fallacy.
I argue that I want him to stay for other reasons.
@DaAdminGooner,
I was responding the HTS in the last thread. We had an ongoing one and I did not want to go back to the previous page.
Thanks Fred for explaining (down below) about your cutting and pasting from the last thread….I didn’t say anything about Wenger being irreplaceable either, only that I felt it’s quite unlikely…..
The argument that Wenger should go carries A LOT of urgency after another crap result AND another poor season. Clearly the club needs change and a new manager (esp. a younger one) with a good team of assistants to work on the technical aspects which need help (as Fred rightly suggests) might be the way to go. A younger, less established manager might also give a fairer shot to our existing players (competition for spots….) than somebody more established with transfer targets already in mind….Kicking AW upstairs might be an acceptable compromise, of sorts, for some…..
That being said, (and as I said in the other thread) it seems very unlikely that Arsenal, even with new ownership, will be breaking down the model of (careful, we would hope) youth scouting and longer contracts and start going for big transfer signings instead. I could be wrong but I just don’t see a major clearout and a splashing of cash. Retaining the better players will continue to be a priority. Given our (frankly woeful) results it’s hard to say just who those players are and how to value them, but I’m pretty sure that’s what Kronke will be having Gazidis and Wenger doing over the summer. Also, given that the manager is on one of those longer, higher paying contracts himself, I don’t see us “taking a loss” there either.
All that being said (apologies for my loquacious tendencies….) it’s still hard to argue that the manager shouldn’t be held accountable. There WILL be protests and many will be unsatisfied until Wenger steps down (or up). Simply hoping the manager changes seems fruitless. Rather we must hope he is forced into changes by the new owner and the other pressures that are brought to bear.
In the end the argument for Wenger staying seems to be more practical than passionate; that “staying the course” (more or less) is a better use of resources than throwing babies out with bathwater…..Much as Man City and Chelsea will likely be better teams next season if they keep their current Italian managers and the majority of their squads, neither manager (nor squad) has exactly bowled over their fans (nor owners) with their success this year nor the promise for a world conquering future.
Finally, I gotta agree that the NBA analogy seems better than the NFL. If anything the bigger teams in bigger markets with National and International followings (Celtics and Lakers, esp.) have a natural advantage. We’re already there to a certain extent (for better or worse) being in a great city with a modern stadium and getting those extra matches in the CL. Too bad the weather isn’t better (like it is in Miami, which landed Bron-Bron over the Knicks….). We need to win, but the only trophies that matter are the CL (most important) and the league. I still predict (eventually) a European Super League, hopefully with promotion and relegation from the larger domestic leagues and entry to the champions of the smaller ones. In 10 or 20 years REAL fans of the biggest clubs will be fat-cats who can fly to Milan or Madrid for the weekend and pay the (already insane) ticket prices, with the rest of us just happy to watch (every match) in HD….