There Is Life After Cesc

by Jamie Dalton
Ed Note: This is the second in our – we can live without Cesc series. We all love Cesc and feel the team would be better with him – but it will surive without him. No, we’re not arguing for selling them, just arguing that if the club do decided to sell him, we’d be allright with that and without him. – DAG
There is life after Cesc….Trust me.
I love watching Cesc Fabregas play for Arsenal. The Arsenal faithful have watched him grow from a 16-year old boy with a seriously bad mullet to a 24 year old club captain with a World Cup and European Championship winners medal. But as the summer approaches and the inevitable link to Barcelona starts up again, is this the summer when Cesc should be sold?
With regret…..Yes. And I’ll tell you why.
Patrick Vieria left Arsenal in the summer of 2005 for Juventus. A moment that was mourned by Arsenal fans worldwide, the captain, the talisman who led his side to 3 titles & 4 FA Cups was gone. His future, like Cesc was the talking point of many a tabloid over many different summers and it was the emergence of Fabregas which ultimately led to his sale. Arsenal evolved from this, changing the style, and although there has been no trophy at Arsenal since the right boot of Vieira won the FA Cup, Arsenal have never been too far away from this.
In fact it wasn’t too long before Vieira was back at Higbury with his new Juventus side, fate drawing the clubs together in the 2006 Champions League Quarter-Final. Arsenal won the tie 2-0 on aggregate. Robert Pires dispossessing Vieira before setting up……Cesc Fabregas. The torch had been passed.
Thierry Henry left Arsenal in the summer of 2007 for Barcelona. Arsenal’s record goalscorer, captain, talisman who was part of the Invincibles and team that so nearly brought London’s first Champions League winning team. There was doom and gloom following his departure, would Arsenal still be a force? If History teaches you nothing, It should teach you that Arsenal are the classic case of “Evolution, Not Revolution”. Emmanuel Adebayor was brought it, and Arsenal evolved again, changing style and impotetus.
The point I’m making is that Vieria and Henry took on some kind of superhero status at Arsenal and it almost got to the stage where Arsenal were far too reliant on them. I can see the start of this happening with Fabregas. The formation has been set solely to suit Fabregas. Samir Nasri and Andrei Arshavin having to be moved out of position to accomadate Cesc. The team has been built around Cesc, understandable but maybe not the right way.
Cesc is also starting to show signs that his fitness is suffering, having made his debut in 2003, Fabregas has amassed over 200 games for Arsenal and nearly 60 for Spain at only 24. His hamstrings have started showings signs of breaking down 2/3 times a season. The pace of the Premier League is starting to take a toll of a guy who hasn’t really had enough rest in the Summers since his breakthrough.
The pace of the Premiership is my final point. Arsenal have always been renowed for their swashbuckling, free-spirited attacking style that has won plaudits from all over the world, Arsenal have suffered this season in games because the “Cesc” formation is far more suited to a team playing in La Liga than The Premier League. Arsenal have become a slow team going forward. Cesc isn’t 100% to blame for this but he is a player who creates pace and space with his mind rather than his legs. The Ramsey/Wilshere partnership vs Man Utd showed what can be done when you attack quickly.
None of this is a sleight on Fabregas, It has been a joy to watch him – Even now I’m thinking about his goal against Spurs, his long range rocket vs AC Milan and countless other Fabregas moments. When he finally does decide to leave, I shall be as sad as the next Arsenal fan and shall wish him all the luck and success with whatever he does, and he will always be welcome back as a supporter or player. But I shall be looking forward to what we can do in the next incarnation of this side, not looking back at what could have been.
Arsenal will evolve, and we will be alright…..Trust me.
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well well HTS.
If there were a statue of Wenger at the Emirates… (is there?)
I wouldn’t topple it!
He’s been a great manager at the club, but unfortunately he’s lost his way… and we as a Football Club, need to move on… to the next period of greatness, “under new management”.
I’ve seen enough. I hold him and the board responsible for SUCKING THE LIFE out of the CLUB and FANS alike.
My biggest complaint is … it didn’t have to be this way.
Maybe he’ll change this Summer. Clear out 4 or 5 players, bring in 4 or 5 new players with experience… WINNERS…
I wouldn’t wager a dime on that happening, and I am done waiting for Wenger… waiting for another Summer of relative inactivity in addressing all the problems.
Then hearing about how we lowered the debt, made a profit, rip other teams for daring to actually SPEND large sums of money to improve, and how we do it with Wenger’s Magic Hat, and we always are wonderfully in the Top 4.
Its a bit like the Boston Bruins hanging “Adams Division Champions” banners… next to the Boston Celtics “NBA Champions” banners… or General Manager Dan Duquette remarking on the Red Sox season… “well, we spent more days in first place than any other team”, though not at the end.
How are we defining WINNING? … you know, like Charlie Sheen… “WINNING!!!”…
It’s only winning when someone is lifting a trophy at the end…
and we haven’t seen that in way too long.
Beat the arguements to death? yes… sure.
but they were much better arguements when we actually WON something occasionally!
well well HTS.
If there were a statue of Wenger at the Emirates… (is there?)
I wouldn’t topple it!
He’s been a great manager at the club, but unfortunately he’s lost his way… and we as a Football Club, need to move on… to the next period of greatness, “under new management”.
I’ve seen enough. I hold him and the board responsible for SUCKING THE LIFE out of the CLUB and FANS alike.
My biggest complaint is … it didn’t have to be this way.
Maybe he’ll change this Summer. Clear out 4 or 5 players, bring in 4 or 5 new players with experience… WINNERS…
I wouldn’t wager a dime on that happening, and I am done waiting for Wenger… waiting for another Summer of relative inactivity in addressing all the problems.
Then hearing about how we lowered the debt, made a profit, rip other teams for daring to actually SPEND large sums of money to improve, and how we do it with Wenger’s Magic Hat, and we always are wonderfully in the Top 4.
Its a bit like the Boston Bruins hanging “Adams Division Champions” banners… next to the Boston Celtics “NBA Champions” banners… or General Manager Dan Duquette remarking on the Red Sox season… “well, we spent more days in first place than any other team”…
How are we defining WINNING? … you know, like Charlie Sheen… “WINNING!!!”…
It’s only winning when someone is lifting a trophy at the end…
and we haven’t seen that in way too long.
Beat the arguements to death? yes… sure.
but they were much better arguements when we actually WON something occasionally!
HTS on fire!!!
Stellar debate here, except HTS, I can’t tell – do you want Wenger to stay, or go? I think you are like me – an idealistic pragmatist. You would love to see him stay and beat the doubters, but really feel that his time has passed.
I used to love Wenger, but he has forgotten everything that made him great. He was the big innovator when he first arrived. Now I can’t remember him doing anything new in a long time. In fact the only surprising thing is that he still stubbornly refuses to address what seems so glaring to others.
How does the board not see this, and do something about it? At a time when there is so much negativity on the blogs, it shows the power of his spin. Up close and personal he must be very impressive, something that is obvious the way former players and colleagues talk about him. Thankfully, Cesc sees through it, and has spoken up. We don’t deserve Cesc any longer. We should let him go, and as fans, thank him for helping to bring the issues to the fore.
Vibe said it before, it is a shame that we will lose Cesc, but keep Wenger. It should be the other way around.
The comments on RVP are harsh. When the team plays well, RVP is hugely influential. When the team plays shite, RVP still scores. I agree that he gets injured a lot (though not sure he is ‘injury prone’, as most of his injuries are impact related, rather than soft tissue), and because of this, the formation should not be built around him. But he still has a very important part to play in the team.
@rocka,
The Board loves Arsene. He has them running a profitable club so they can draw huge salaries and perks each year while raising ticket prices, slagging off fans as being “silly” and claiming they don’t take any money out because they don’t pay dividends. Who needs dividends when you are all earning over 1Mill and enjoying as young Theo would say “massive” perks, “brilliant”
The only potential big losers are Usamov and Kroenke. Historically, Kroenke tends to work at a slower pace for change and works within the framework of what he has inherited (bought). Usamov, the second richest man in Europe, is the total opposite but his hands are tied within the framework of the current Arsenal oligarchy.
Ultimately, change won’t come unless Kroenke decides to be the “Ugly American” and pull a Mark Cuban or George Steinbrenner.
@Caribkid, you are welcome to accuse the board of being greedy but your statement: “Who needs dividends when you are all earning over 1Mill” is factually incorrect.
directly from the club’s financial report:
2010 2009
PH Wood 75,000 75,000
KJ Friar 1,016,000 1,495,000
D Fiszman 25,000 25,000
Sir Keswick 25,000 25,000
Lord Harris (donated his) 25,000 25,000
I Gazidas 1,818,000 667,000
S Kroenke 25,000 17,000
R Carr 0 17,000
Lady Bracewell-Smith 0 14,000
I see 2 board memebers who are “highly” compensated, one is the ceo the other in the managing director and thier salaries/compensation are “in line” for their roles within a large company. if you want to accuse them of greed feel free, but you need to present factual information backing your claim. you can’t just make stuff that you heard second hand. as for perks, other than a “free” ticket to the director’s box and the cache of being on the board, what else is there?
@highburyterracesteve
Thoroughly enjoyable rant/rave/riposte ;)
Like a few muted voices on here, I stand somewhere between the AKB’s and the AMG’s because I truly admire his vision but hate his intractable method of creation.
I am not one of those who think that making it to the CL every year is the ultimate goal. In sports, like life itself, the aim is to come first, be numero uno, head honcho, the best at what you do. Not everyone can be the best, but you can be the best to your ability. We are in a unique position in that we have all the basic ingredients to be at the top of the mountain but we are being restrained by an intractable methodology where we can’t see the trees for the forest.
Although I can’t see Arsene changing, let’s see what happens next season before we string him up at Marble Gate. :reallypissed:
@Caribkid, Cheers, CK….
An SF gooner (Grimbo) is trying for a realist perspective (but supportive of the manager, I think) over on the 7amkickoff site. It’s been a good read, so far….
I wish I was as optimistic as you (and many other regulars) seem to be. I really believe that given the Chelsea and Man City money and the willingness of United, Liverpool and others to play fast and loose with high debt levels, we’re working with a hand tied behind our back. We simply are not at that level (at least for transfers) and some of our gambles with contracts have been poor.
Austerity now for a brighter future in the long-term is far from a popular stance, as we know watching the current politics in our country. In the more constrained (but still very wild and woolly) world of football, we actually have an example of it (rather than just posturing) and I think it might have a chance, but it’s a long haul….
Who knows, maybe Kronke and Usmanov will turn on the taps and it’ll be happy days, rightaways. (You know, like billionaires donating half their fortunes to charity…..) Otherwise it seems more of a protracted drip, drip, drip which requires good (better? impossibly perfect?) management in order to amount to anything more than a puddle…..
OK, ‘nuf said, time to roll the dice with my last transfer in the fantasy league…..
Well, nobody’s ripped me (nor Josh-below, still don’t like the format, btw DAG….) a new one for suggesting that, in fact, RVP (and Cesc) are good players and it could be in the interest of the team to keep them….Whassup? Is it a bank holiday? Are people already on vacation (knowing that May is a good time to take one if you’re an Arsenal fan….) My Spring (back-country) ski adventure got postponed due to bad weather, so I’ll be around for the Villa match and the protests…..
Kiwi, (from down further below) I’m not looking for a circle jerk or any other kind of jerk….In fact, I’m rather tiring of the jerks in general….
What I am looking for is a place to discuss Arsenal with intelligent and respectful folks. I will always be happy that I stumbled onto the team as I did AND the AA discussion. Quite a bunch of characters and a lot of reality seen there which time has proven correct. (Amidst the usual BS and noise, of course, but still very informative…..)
But I come here to test ideas and respond in kind (both meanings), so I appreciate others who do the same. My take is that I (and perhaps others) am trying to figure out how to proceed as an Arsenal supporter given that I have to accept what actually IS, rather than what I might WANT it to be.
For some, I believe, the situation is so miserable (and predictable) that they just can’t go on in that mode. Instead, it’s trench warfare and grenades….
Unfortunately, I think we’re getting to a point where there’s nothing left to say; that the divide is such that it really is only about slogans and fighting in the streets: AKBs may believe in a dream that will never materialize, but the AMGs (“must gos”…..) are likewise slumbering (as I imagine kiwi does during matches). For those folks, as my Antipodean friend suggests, at least time is on their side…..Arsene WILL go, eventually….
It may very well be that we will never win anything under the current manager, but he seems to be here for the short term (at least). To reduce all discussion to Wenger must go and then the new manager will dismantle the team, bring in lots of great players and we’ll start winning everything…..Well, wake me up when that happens. In other words we might as well take a break until we get the new boss….
For example, the topic at hand….we can’t even discuss it….Who cares if Cesc is a great player, maybe the best passer in football (Fred)? If his going (cheaply, in a sweet gesture to the club we stole him from….) helps dismantle AW’s Arsenal, then so be it. And since we can’t discuss any individual issues, I might as well indulge in a bit of hyperbole myself…..
Like extending the “vision” of the AMGs to it’s logical end…. This season has had it’s share of humiliations, but we need MORE, lots more, It just helps us move towards the future glory…..
In the short term,,,,,, Go On You Villains!!! Crush us, humiliate us…..The worse we get beat the louder the “Wenger Out” cry will be and that’s a victory (of sorts), the culmination of the (crap) season. It’s doubtful that such a display will cause Wenger to step down, but you never know…..And on the plus side it gives us more matches (CL qualifiers, with the manager whinging about an improper pre-season….) so we can take up the mantle even earlier in late summer, rooting for our opponents, praying for deeper humiliations. And then, if we go out of the CL–IN AUGUST, how sweet would that be? No, probably better to squeak through, just so the fans (blue and black scarves, maybe?) can use the group stages to chant protests and deepen the hate…..
And hopefully by that time we’re WAAAAYYYY down the table, maybe in the relegation places. We’re probably too good for that dream to materialize, but it would be cool to be far enough down that some major purchases in January would be needed to give us a chance to get back to the one thing that counts (under AW): a top four finish….
Where does it end? (Personally I’d like to see a youtube video of Stag and Fred sneaking into the emirates and toppling the AW statue, maybe with Mazza in the background pointing which direction it should fall….But that’s just me….)
Arsene Must Go….but where will we be when he does?….
Liverpool only missed two seasons of CL football and we’ll (happily) give them our spot for 2012-13. Then we hire our own Dalglish. (Someone young and brave and unknown like AW was, or maybe an ex-player like Tony Adams or Dennis Bergkamp–no flying necessary if we’re out of Europe…..) Then we shoot right back to the top…..
(Jon Lovitz voice) “Yeah, that’s the ticket”
(To be fair, maybe the wild ride would be more entertaining….)
(Thanks, as always for reading and sorry if anybody feels like I’m yanking their chain, or otherwise being a jerk. In truth I love each and every one of you and what I really think we need is a big group hug…..How about an AA/YAMA meet-up at my place in Lake Tahoe–the hot tub seats 8…..You know, maybe when Wenger gets fired…..)
@highburyterracesteve, Well Steve, you should check to see if you have a hot tub time machine because I reckon that can help solve a lot of issues :) we can slip Sol a copy of the DVD so that he does not go near Rooney in Oct 2004. Or tell RVP not to celebrate after the Man Utd goal. Or better yet, tell Jens not to rush out in the final. If the present and future ain’t looking too promising, maybe it is easier to change the past :) although that could have more ramifications.
@Sachin, Whatever happens in the hot tub, stays in the hot tub, as they say…..
kiwi understand, i’ve never suggested we build the team around van persie. in fact, i’ve suggested since adebayor left that we buy a new striker to lead the line. our discussions have been about whether we should sell him. i’ve repeatedly said no and my reason has always been simple; because he’s too good.
despite missing half the season, van persie has produced 23 goals and assists. to give you an idea of how good that is, the league leader in goals and assists is tevez and he only has 25. in other words, no one in the league is nearly as potent as van persie and his nearly 1.5 goals/assists per game. to me, it’s seems like a bad idea to sell a player that productive.
@joshuad, He’s a very, very good player with fitness issues, as is Fabregas (the ostensible topic). Wenger has given those two unbelievable opportunities at the expense of others who might relish similar freedoms. I’m talking, of course, about Nasri, Theo, Bendtner and Arshavin, all of whom have their own fitness issues, the first three with injuries (and youth, which is perhaps related….), the latter with age and dedication to personal fitness…..
Both RVP and Cesc, IMO, would be foolish to try and move to teams where they will be less focal. That’s not to say that Arsenal shouldn’t allow others to share the central positions (or slot in when there are injury issues) or buy other (ready for prime time) players who might offer direct competition and back-up in these crucial spots. Other key players, whether sourced internally or externally, might also justify formation variations……
Unfortunately, I think many here would argue that the current manager is overly dedicated to his vision of these two (oft-injured) players as central to his narrative….
I think Kiwi and others, while perhaps able to appreciate talent, are unable to separate the (coddled?) players from he who coddles them, and it may be a case of babies (to borrow from Fred’s lexicon) needing to be thrown out with bath water. If it leads to demise of the team, so be it, as perhaps then the real problem (AW) will (finally) be addressed. For me, that’s not an acceptable premise (yet), but it seems to carry substantial weight among the regulars…..
Lazio want to give us NINE million for Marouane “Hahahahahah” Chamakh – or so the BBC rumor mill goes.
I hope it happens. The club can make a nice, cool PROFIT of nine million. And we can get rid of the only striker in the entire world who can not shoot.
@Fred, seeing that ANYTHING we get is a “profit”… I think 5 Million would be just fine. We can use that to extend Wengers contract, or perhaps increase the salaries of Diaby, Denilson and Rosicky.
@highburyterracesteve,
Commenting here Steve because the boxes get too narrow!
No need to answer my points by going to an extreme Steve, I can deal with arguments around the margins and even nuances :)
My point is simple, Wenger won’t change his MO – never. We’ve spent 6 years trying to work him out and then hoping he’d adjust his thinking to improve our chances, even just a little bit, but it hasn’t happened. Indeed, if you stepped back and listened to his comments (and tone) in a dispassionate manner you’d know he’s getting more entrenched, defensive and stubborn not less. So he is what he is. And let’s be frank, no one has ever been able to articulate Wenger’s playing strategy – it’s uniquely Wengerish. The difference is that in the first stanza he was successful and when you’re successful you don’t get questioned (much), in the second stanza he’s been unsuccessful and so every body’s scratching their heads and questions are coming (thicker? &) faster and Wenger’s response has been to pull down the bar. Note: winning is now 4th, before the CL format changed 4th was nothing. Now it’s everything (or so we’re told).
Ultimately, people will catch on. Wenger’s not a COO he’s a Football Manager – and at Arsenal ‘winning’ is the aspiration not balancing the books. Some people will take longer than others. But….pro sport is aspirational not a ‘safe business’. Arsenal have been ‘winners’ since the 1930’s and were winners before Wenger came (under GG)….so if he wants a laboratory for his experiment he should move to a Spurs or a West Ham who have a history of tolerating the pursuit of good football.
I’m saying I’m tired of the Wenger cycle. It’s become boring. I wasn’t weened on Wenger’s Arsenal my perspective is far longer so I don’t feel so entrapped by his spell and the prospect of falling into the abyss when he leaves. As Fred has said repeatedly he was NOTHING when he arrived NOTHING, zippo, “Arsene Who”. He made his name off the back of GG’s defence (5+1), and Bergkamp, and the mental strength that GG had forged into Arsenal. I really can’t escape the truth that once all those aspects have gone – so has the success. Would Wenger have been successful without those aspects? I’m not certain, but I doubt it.
Could another manager come in and tweak this squad and win a domestic cup? Of course. Wenger almost did and we all know the gapping weaknesses we possess. A couple of additions and a small realignment in our style (a balance) and we could win the CC or FAC. With 2 off-seasons we could shed some deadwood retune the balance and culture, buy in perhaps 4-5 players (over 2 off-seasons) and challenge for the title. Of course, it’s no certainty, but imo it’s a better bet than treading water or slowly retreating as we have been and will continue to do under TEITR.
There’s no need to go crazy on either transfer fees or salaries. The fact that our wages is so close to ManU’s shows you we compete on that level. If you flogged of 2 of our crap GKs and bought Pepe Reina, sold Squillaci and bought a defensive minded CB, and sold RvP, Bendtner, Vela and Rosicky and bought a truly serious striker that can play a season you’d be well on the way. Is any of that outlandish? Didn’t think so :)
@Kiwi,
A small postscript to your suggestion Steve to buckle in if there was a managerial change. I suggest no matter what happens to TEITR – there’s a need to buckle in.
His Nibs has exhausted the grace that he accrued from his period of success, it’s gone, the number of disenchanted Arsenal supporters will swell and the media will be snarling & snapping around his carcass as quick as you can say “mental strength”. Deep down he knows it, that’s why his public manner is fraying on the touchline and in the media room. If nothing else, that should provide a bit of entertainment.
@Kiwi, Very good, and by the way, very nice to have your voice back in the mix….I pity you guys down under with the crazy match times, but maybe you didn’t have to watch too many to know how they’d pan out…..
It’s not outlandish, but it will NEVER happen (so maybe it is….) We’re far more likely, IMO, to get lucky with a few results, think it’s because of inherent quality and carry forward from there with, as AW would say, belief and mental strength. And I don’t think that’s gonna happen for a second…..Nonetheless, it’s a whole lot more likely than your scenario. (Look at that list of player sales you suggest and actually imagine it happening…..And, I guess we’re keeping Eboue, Denilson, Diaby, Walcott, Chamakh, etc. who will form the core of our team?) It’s a beautiful dream, maybe, but that’s not the club I’ve been watching……
The topic at hand is Cesc and, IMO, we need him and he needs us, but I’ve already explained that. The money his sale would generate ain’t gonna do the trick, either…..
So for me, rather new to the team and the sport, I’m looking for hope and a way that things might pan out better than my rational mind sees things. Frankly, I don’t get how we’re going to compete with these other teams unless (as I’ve said before) the stars all line up. ManUnited generates more money than we do and is content to pay 40 mil pounds/year (and counting) to service their debt. Chelsea and City have no constraints at all and ‘Pool and Spurs also seem willing to go down the debtors path. We’re in the mix, but, to say it again, we need to turn the corner in terms of responsibility and leadership. If Cesc is out, then he’s out, but if he’s in I think it’s ffar more likely for things to bounce our way.
I’m looking for the silver lining but I need it to be reality based, sorry…..
@highburyterracesteve, steve, stag was right on the money when he said it. there is only one club fabregas will go to and that’s barcelona. fab isn’t sick to leave arsenal, he’s sick to go back to barcelona. i don’t think wenger or fabregas would even entertain the thought of a deal to man city at any price.
@highburyterracesteve,
Don’t want to get into ‘circle jerk’ but what exactly “will never happen”? If you mean Wenger will never leave then I think you’re quite wrong.
It’s only a question of time.
And when it happens the new manager will deconstruct his experiment – guaranteed. The only thing we can’t say with certainty is when this will happen. One thing we can say is that each year with no trophies in the shiny new Emirates Stadium brings us closer to that time.
Of course there is life without Cesc. Just like there is life without Wenger. However, the former is easier to talk about because in the current Arsenal, it is acceptable to sell big players. And there are always younger players to look forward to. In 2 years, there may be talk about finding the new Jack after Wilshere is sold.
Although I don’t think there will be life without Almunia, Diaby, Denilson, [..add choice player]. Them jewels are keepers.. :clown:
In the minds of many Robin van Persie has had a good season. But….. truth is he’s started 17 EPL games. 17 out of 36 – that’s not even 50%. How can you build a team around a guy who even when he’s good gives you a 50% return?
How long before Wenger wakes up to this? Seven years is a long time in football…. how long before the penny drops for Wenger?
@Kiwi,
Thats not even my main gripe with RvP.
My problem is that whole 1 striker thing is good for RvP but quite bad for the team. He has no real presence in the box, is not good in the air, is not fast, can not hold the ball up and is not physically robust.
He is good at snatching at shots and making something out of nothing (with a few glaring misses), but he just cant bring the team with him because he has no characteristics to actually build an attack on.
This wont be a problem in a 4-4-2 but in a lone striker situation it is just horrible. By next season, with no supplies from midfield, it would be obvious for the masses to see.
@Fred,
Agree with all that Fred.
@Fred, YEP.
@Kiwi, van persie has been fit since december. that proves he’s not injury prone. injury prone is diaby who has a calf strain every other week. ljunberg and walcott with their various thigh strains or ankle sprains are also injury prone types. van persie suffered significant injuries from bad tackles. that’s not injury prone. that’s bad luck.
despite starting less than half the games, he’s still third in the league in scoring. think about that for a minute: third in the league. sixteen goals in 17 starts. that’s better than good my friend. that’s fucking exceptional. and like i’ve mentioned to you over the past few years, sometimes you make exceptions for exceptional talent. i think a goal a game is pretty exceptional; not to mention the 7 assists. there are only two other players in the world putting up similar numbers: messi and cristiano ronaldo.
with that, van persie is not a #9. he’s a second striker; a #10 like bergkamp but different. i don’t know if dennis could ever lead the line like van persie has but dennis had a skill set like no other. arsenal need a pacy and powerful center forward who will give us a presence up front and stretch defenses. as fred has already mentioned, that’s not van persie’s game. and like i’ve been screaming for the past two seasons, we need a proper #9 to lead our line. i was happy with ade the dade and the presence he provided but that milk is spilled. we’ll see what the future holds.
@joshuad, you’re right he is no #9.
Looking at RVP’s qualities, and Wenger’s unjustifiable distaste for 4-4-2, I see Robin playing off not a clunky #9 like Bendtner or Chamakh, but somebody quicker, with better technique, like Chicharito.
Come to think of it, whatever happened to Walcott being turned into a centre forward? Wenger mentioned several times that Theo’s best position will be up front.
Tthat would mean that Cesc has to go back where he was best, Theo’s runs won’t be so frequently impeded by the touch line, and no need for Diaby nor Denilson.
Just dreaming.
@joshuad,
7 years of ‘bad luck’?
I don’t think so.
He’s injury prone. You continue to miss the point Josh because you’re ‘head-over-heals’ for RvP, if he can’t be available for more than 50% of games he’s never going to be core to a winning team. NEVER. You can’t win the league on the back of a player who only starts 50% of games (and that’s best-case, worst-case he might be available less).
Messi and Ronaldo and Henry et al are GREAT because they’re both robust and uber-talented. RvP isn’t the former and I’d suggest isn’t the latter either.
Frankly even if he was fit/robust (which he never is) I’m still not convinced he’s the type of striker you’d build an attack around. I share Fred’s view on this, that he’s individualistic and offers little as a focal point.
Sorry….
@Kiwi,
I stick with my position, either sell him or retain him as an ‘option’ but don’t continue to bank our season on him. If Wenger continues to back RvP as the no.1 focal point in attack then he deserves to be shot. :-)
I wrote a little about this earlier today (in response to joshuad on the previous thread)….
If Cesc turns in a transfer request he must go. We don’t have to sell him to Barca, however…..
Personally, It would be in Cesc’s best interest to stay, make some public statements about the sort of help he needs from the club and return to Barca when Xavi’s powers are not at their full height. Barca will have a season where they stumble (King’s cup, by the way means zilch, sorta like the CC or FA cup….) and Cesc could return as a conquering hero/prodigal son….
Likewise this is not the time to sell him. He’s coming off a bad season, punctuated by his woeful performance at the Camp Nou. Sure, if a team were to offer an insane amount of money (City, for example as Stag suggests….) but that would be tawdry and we would have to call him Fabrecash, etc. Instead, Arsenal need to follow their M.O. and lure the boy with a contract extension and a massive paycheck. He might not (fully) deserve it….just make it proportional to the output we’ve gotten from some of our other Central Midfielders…..(And then sign on Nasri, etc.)….
The pressure SHOULD be felt throughout the leadership of the club. The owner needs to pony up, the manager needs to try some new stuff (get in some proper assistants, a decent 2nd striker, maybe practice a set piece or three….) and the captain needs to stand up as the on-pitch heart of the team. If he wants out, fine, we will survive, but it will be a massive struggle to hold a top 4 position. What’s Madrid offering?…..
@highburyterracesteve,
Tend to disgaree Stevo, we’ve been there. Henry wanted to go, we convinced him to stay post-CL defeat by Barca, paid him an extortionate amount and in return got a crap season from a player struggling with injury and deep down wanting away. he left the next season.
Retaining Fabregas would likely maintain 4th place (perhaps) and the myth that we are a club with winning aspirations. But we all know that there is an elephant in the the room. A tall French one whose MO now looks naked when there is no success (wins) to disguise the bizzare. 4th is Arsene’s level, we’ve seen that. If we want to compete again for anything we need to let him go.
We saw on the 27 February, when this team had a gilt edged opportunity to demonstrate ability and mental strength that it wasn’t there. We gagged and choked and Fabregas saw that too. He no longer believes, if you keep him you need to get rid of the elephant in the room. If you don’t address the source of the problem you’re simply papering over the cracks. Appoint a new manager, 2 or 3 strategic changes, and we’ll win something. One more season, a few more changes and we’ll win the league. But not with Wenger.
@Kiwi, Well, you’re more optimistic than I am…..
I really don’t see turning this ship around that quickly. I know that you don’t favor high remuneration for players that aren’t doing the job, but I’m not sure what the alternative is. You have to realize that players like Carlos Tevez and YaYa Toure are on well over 200,000 pounds/week….
Sure, maybe a new manager comes in and buys the right players and everything comes up aces. Or maybe not. A legitimate criticism of the current manager might be that he’s simply lost his ability to pick players. Who’s to say that a new manager will do better? My point is that even if you blow up the team and try to start somewhat fresh, you still have a very high wage structure in place which new players will demand in addition to the transfer fees….A scenario that will demand the rubles of Alisher Usmanov….Why that would translate into trophies in a year or two (and not mid table malaise) you’ll have to explain….
Like I say, if Cesc wants a transfer we should find the highest bidder do the deal and spend the money well. Personally I think it’s a blow. The board is committed to a zero-debt scenario and the new owner seems like more of the same. That puts us squarely in 4th place and perhaps 5th or 6th behind the teams with Sugar Daddies and comfort with high leverage. Our best asset is that we have young players coming up together. If Cesc wants out, the remainder (plus, hopefully a couple of key additions) will have to pull themselves up by the bootstraps and make it happen. Based on the current season the odds for this seem very, very long. But hey, why not…..
The more pieces that are pulled out of the puzzle (manager, other first teamers) the more we are left with a plan consisting of HOPE, and from what I’ve been told, that’s no plan at all. Dire as the scenario is, a realistic look at how our rivals are building reveals that it could get a whole lot worse. Still, change for change sake might be just the tonic…..At least it would be a wild ride…..If it were to happen (it won’t) my advice would be: Buckle up……
@highburyterracesteve,
“who is to say a new manager will do better?”.
REALLY??? If you were a manager at your work or the owner of your company and your employee has failed continuously for a long while now, will you honestly avoid sacking him because “who is to say a new employee will do better”.
The thinking that ONLY Wenger can do well is completely and thoroughly illogical anyway you look at it.
“Our best asset is that we have young players coming up together.”
What young players??? We have Wilshere and thats it.
We have to change.
@highburyterracesteve,
“who is to say a new manager will do better?”.
REALLY??? If you were a manager at your work or the owner of your company and your employee has failed continuously for a long while now, will you honestly avoid sacking him because “who is to say a new employee will do better”.
The thinking that ONLY Wenger can do well is completely and thoroughly illogical anyway you look at it.
“Our best asset is that we have young players coming up together.”
What young players??? We have Wilshere and thats it.
We have to change.
@highburyterracesteve, Steve. everybody knows Cesc only wants to go to one place, Barcelona. If they offer a decent price… you would then turn around and say, NO… we’ll sell you to Madrid or City, they are offering more money?
After that fiasco happens, if he were to stay… how do you think that would work out? He’d be just thrilled to be here? He’d be pissed off with the club AND Wenger, and it would be freaking chaos… other players would view this situation, and NEVER want to come to the club… and players here would be thinking, what if I get a chance to leave, they’ll feck with me too?!!!
There is NO WINNING, if the player wants to go… if he doesn’t want to be at the club, you sell him.
He has been a good player and a good soldier for Arsene.
Xavi is getting offered MASSIVE money by City to finish his career there… which will open the door for Cesc to go home.
It is incumbent upon Arsene Wenger and the Arsenal Football Club to CHANGE the dynamic and the atmosphere at the club. Liverpool brought in Dagliesh, sold off Torres, and paid to bring in 2 players to change the fortunes… English core… and they will also go after additional British players… away from the “Little Spain” that won them the CL, but then collapsed into the abyss.
We have Wilshire and Ramsey… Theo… its not a bad core… now go get a Scott Parker… or someone in that mold… physical, strong down the spine… PAY what you have to for the quality, OVERPAY if you have to… but change the culture at the club. We are WEAK… with a LOSING mentality… and everybody knows it. We are a SELLING CLUB… and everybody knows we care more about PROFIT than WINNING. That mentality MUST CHANGE…
and keeping Cesc against his wishes, is NOT going to help the Arsenal Football Club regain its swagger… its going to prolong it.
@stag133 Same response, Buckle up, it’ll be a wild ride…. (Luckily it won’t be happening…..)
I appreciate the emotion and the desire to return to the good old days. I know that you appreciate the old stadiums and the lower leagues. That’s not what Arsenal are aiming for and things at the highest level will always be different since the injection of the Chelsea and (now) Man City money.
I hadn’t heard the note about Xavi to City. If that happened (very doubtful, in my mind, there are things beyond endless piles of money, I would hope….) it would be a nice gesture to let Cesc slide into his spot at Barca.
It would NOT, however, be good business. Also, I stand by the idea that the very best scenario is for Cesc to be a part of a winning Arsenal team before his (triumphant) return home. My big fear is that Cesc goes back to Barca for less than he’s worth to us. But maybe if his heart (and body) can’t be asked to do the job for us (or Real Madrid or Man City) then perhaps his true level is more (hometown) bench warmer than lynchpin and leader of a lesser team….
At some point I’d like to get back to the on-field attributes (and deficiencies) of El Cap as Josh and I were trying to discuss on the previous thread. IMO, if Cesc could play a little deeper and had some serious targets who knew how to move and finish and interchange…..Well, even I would feel a little genuine hope.
Sorry, Gary Cahill or Mark Schwarzer (why not Robert Green?) or Scott Parker or Carlton or Joe Cole or any of that old or English stuff….sorry, it just doesn’t do a whole lot for me and I pray that we don’t head in that direction.
For me the best thing about the ManU game (besides Ramsey’s nice goal) was Sagna calling the team out. He’s captain material, in my opinion. I’m not as optimistic as many on this board, but I feel a fairly small injection of talent and the creation of a superior culture in the squad is not that far away and many of the current players can be a part of it.
If Cesc’s out, then he’s out, but the best way for us to get over that hump, IMO, is if he were to give it his all…..
@highburyterracesteve, Steve. everybody knows Cesc only wants to go to one place, Barcelona. If they offer a decent price… you would then turn around and say, NO… we’ll sell you to Madrid or City, they are offering more money?
After that fiasco happens, if he were to stay… how do you think that would work out? He’d be just thrilled to be here? He’d be pissed off with the club AND Wenger, and it would be freaking chaos… other players would view this situation, and NEVER want to come to the club… and players here would be thinking, what if I get a chance to leave, they’ll feck with me too?!!!
There is NO WINNING, if the player wants to go… if he doesn’t want to be at the club, you sell him.
He has been a good player and a good soldier for Arsene.
Xavi is getting offered MASSIVE money by City to finish his career there… which will open the door for Cesc to go home.
It is incumbent upon Arsene Wenger and the Arsenal Football Club to CHANGE the dynamic and the atmosphere at the club. Liverpool brought in Dagliesh, sold off Torres, and paid to bring in 2 players to change the fortunes… English core… and they will also go after additional British players… away from the “Little Spain” that won them the CL, but then collapsed into the abyss.
We have Wilshire and Ramsey… Theo… its not a bad core… now go get a Scott Parker… or someone in that mold… physical, strong down the spine… PAY what you have to for the quality, OVERPAY if you have to… but change the culture at the club. We are WEAK… with a LOSING mentality… and everybody knows it. We are a SELLING CLUB… and everybody knows we care more about PROFIT than WINNING. That mentality MUST CHANGE…
and keeping Cesc against his wishes, is NOT going to help the Arsenal Football Club regain its swagger… its going to prolong it.
I’d say the same logic applies to the manager…
Yes, we can go on as a club and have success without Cesc Fabregas… no doubt.
(if you actually bring in some quality)
and also, the club can be great again, and win trophies WITHOUT ARSENE WENGER as well….
the great club will go on …
nobody is bigger than the club, including Wenger (or Cesc)…
but just selling players and NOT attempting to replace them, while you stuff the profit in the mattress, is GREED.
I say sell Cesc, which would stop AFC qualifying for the CL, which in turn could force the board to take a hard look at the management.
What do you mean by “When he finally does decide to leave”? He turned in a transfer request, last year, he is from Barcelona and wants to return, they want him, HE WANTS TO WIN.
As much as I like him, as a player, he is a reason, a sick reason in AW’s mind, to try to play Barca like. He does make the many mediocrities, around him, look good, BUT we shouldn’t build a team on the back of one player.
He deserves to get a chance to play for Barca, he worked hard and pulled the team for years, let us enjoy his playing in a historically great team.
Will his departure be a draw back for AFC?
Of course,but with Rosicki phasing out, Arshavin as well, and Nasri not imposing himself COULD force the manager to adopt a tactic in view of the many limits of the squad, instead of some halcyon dreams of “pure football”.
As for “reinvesting” the profits, from Cesc’s sale, TOUGH CHANCE my fellow gooners. They will be put to “better” use somewhere in the States.
@Arsenalistul,
1. Cesc never turned in a formal transfer request. He said he wanted to play for Barcelona. that was it. No formal request was ever made of the club.
2. He does not make the mediocrities around him look good. Diaby and Denilson still look like shit even when Cesc is on the pitch.
3. He deserves nothing. He signed a contract. It is up to the club if they decide to sell him.
@DaAdminGooner, mea culpa :eek: I was wrong with one detail, but not with my point that Cesc wants to leave.
Unfortunately contracts between clubs and valuable players are not worth the paper they are written on.
It’s better to get rid of a player, wanting to leave, sooner then later. Otherwise he’ll put in sub par performances, and be out treating many injuries……….just like Cesc this season.
He was a very good servant for Wenger, his amazing progress is the main reason for the myth about Wenger’s golden touch with youngsters. Of course he got remunerated accordingly, he is the only probable world class player at the club .
Him leaving COULD be the “coup de grace” for Wenger.
Him staying won’t solve any of the fundamental causes of AFC not winning anything.
Wow, that’s Yankee grammar for you :rotfl:
I am amazed at the reference to the Manu game as a proof that Ramsey can take Cecs place. we created very little in the game, and were lucky to score. So what happened against Stoke? I hope we still keep Cecs for at least another season, the Manu game was a fluke, we did not create as much chances in that game to say that Ramsey has arrived. What we must do is to find the best way to use Cecs to avoid the injuries.
@Chiedozie,
Agreed on everything but keeping cesc. In the manu match as soon as fergie went for the win by substituting anderson for valencia we score a lucky goal by penetrating the area where anderson was playing, manu then tightened up that area of the pitch. To say that ‘we bossed the midfield against manu’ is pure fantasy – a phenomenon that occurs with great regularity at AFC these days, downplaying bad performances and exagerating some luckier moments. Unfortunately the Stoke game is a more accurate reflection of where this team is – leaderless and a bit on the gutless side, both of which are going to cost you in this league.
As for cesc, why bother. A torch was passed you say from Vieira to cesc, I think not. Vieira was a champion, cesc is yet to win anything with us. Can you be an Arsenal legend and never win anything with the club, maybe in the rarest of circumstances but with his heart in barca I don’t think cesc qualifies. A great player, but too many complications with him. Sell cesc for top dollar buy some winners who bleed red and white. Of course, you could say that about quite a few of our players, but that’s only if the ambition is to win something, an ambition Arsenal currently doesn’t have.
@Chiedozie,
We had just two shots on target in the Man U game – at home no less.
sorry, jamie as i haven’t read part 1 of your fabregas series. it’s interesting as yesterday i wrote many of the things you’ve just mentioned. it seems we’ve noticed similar qualities in our captain. however, to mention them on this site means to wind up quite a few people that don’t like to hear those kind of things about their baby. perhaps they need some time to think about it. i know i thought about it all season before i posted yesterday. maybe i need to think about it some more.
there was some implication that i blame fabregas for our failure to win a trophy. that’s far from true. arsenal had a bunch of other problems that merely coincided with fabregas walking into the team. namely was losing the half-man/half-amazing patrick vieira; the mainstay for all of wenger’s trophies. taking the tip of the sword and dulling the cutting edge by placing a captain’s armband on it was far from brilliant. there was the move to the new stadium, change of formation, loss of leadership, cole cheating on the club, henry/reyes friction, sol losing his mind, and several other factors more significant than fabregas. shit, cesc was a shining light.
many fans have demanded arsenal buy experience and abandon the youth project. well, fabregas is the prototype for wenger’s youth project but no one wants to see him leave? ironic? we’ve tried for six years, changing the tactics and formation in an effort to accommodate fabregas but we’re not closer to winning a title than we were day one. should we try another year? can someone define insanity for me again? besides, we still need for fabregas to be on board but his mind is only on spain.
i love cesc and think he’s a great player. i’ve bought my son a cesc replica each of the past four years. but i can’t see the way forward with him at the helm in his current state of mind. does it matter how nice the shoes are if they don’t fit? can someone please show me what i’m missing and how what i wrote yesterday was so wrong? while i’d hate to see such a talent leave, i’m thinking about the club first and the world doesn’t stop.
@joshuad,
I wrote Part 1.
@DaAdminGooner, sorry, dag.
@joshuad,
“fabregas is the prototype for wenger’s youth project but no one wants to see him leave? ironic? we’ve tried for six years, changing the tactics and formation in an effort to accommodate fabregas but we’re not closer to winning a title than we were day one.”
You still cant get it.
The problem wasnt Fabregas, the problem was NEVER actually builiding a competent team around him. We have so many holes, technical deficiencies, at the back and up front its incredible. Vieira would NOT have won with THIS team.
A great player still NEEDS a competent team. I know that might be difficult to understand for some.
Of course players are replaced all the time. And the club goes on. That’s (any sport) 101.
In addition to CG’s points, the Henry/Viera arguments skate over the fact that both of those players were in decline. Cesc is coming into his prime.
Beyond that, all this talk centering around Cesc completely misses the point. Our best player wants to go and he should probably be granted that wish at this point. What that leaves is a team with significant flaws, as built by His Arrogance. A team that even the staunchest AKBer seems to have woken up and noticed is NOT improving.
But AFC, thanks to Wenger, has managed that rare feat of being both YOUNG and DECLINING. Now add in losing our best player, in his prime, but holding onto to architect of this mess. And therein lies the real problem.
Of course AFC won’t die. But none of this bodes well for the quality of life at the Emirates.
Trust me.
@DAG
My memory is a trifle different to yours.
Viera’s last season at Arsenal showed the start of the decline of his powers and his time was up. Even more so was Henry’s last season and most fans were not sorry to see him depart. Both men were and always will be Arsenal Legends .
The same goes for Fabregas but for a different reason. We have not seen the best of him this season, whether for personal or injury reasons and I do not feel that this situation will change while he is at the Emirates. His desire to return to his homeland is too strong and we should respect this and release him from his present contract.
Jamie, it seems to me your arguments about Vieira and Henry leaving distort the facts. Here’s the way I see it
1. Vieira and Henry were here and we won everything but the European Cup.
2. Vieira and Henry left.
3. We’ve won nothing since, and they’ve both won other things elsewhere.
Yet you say that their departures weren’t that bad because we continued to play well, and as for silverware, well, “Arsenal have never been too far away from this.”
That is precisely the problem. With them we were good enough to win, now we’re not. You can try all you want to say there’s been no drop-off in quality, but to me results are indicative of quality, and the results are not the same.
No matter how much you try to say the opposite, Arsenal are not as good as when we had Henry/Vieira (not to mention the rest of those guys). We went from winning trophies to not winning trophies so there was an obvious drop-off when these players, who the team was build around, left.
Now another player who the team is built around is going to leave and you think there won’t be a drop-off? I think my disagreement is more with your logic than your actual opinion. (Cause if we were to completely retool, we would be OK w/o Cesc, tho I see that as unlikely). Your argument is that we can avoid a drop-off in quality/results w/o Cesc, but one of your biggest pieces of evidence supporting that argument is that there wasn’t a drop-off when other equally or more important players left. But, in the face of results, I don’t know how you can say there hasn’t been a drop-off.
Ofcoz u can survive witawt him en much beta just like da red devils they are doing without da star c.ronaldo .sell him but only if wana go.
Arsenal will be alright without him.. Cesc is good, but arsenal is a great team, we can do it without cesc.. There is Nasri,Wilshere,Ramsey etc Who can replace him. Come on Gunners! #Gooners4Life #Arsenaluntilidie ( :yes: )
But who can replace this great man ?
Bad timing on this article. Don’t see the need to talk about this being the right time for Cesc to leave when the season isn’t over yet. He still has to come back and play a few games, and as for him leaving, it’s pretty unlikely as Barcelona cannot afford what we want. As for Cesc slowing us down, don’t really buy that either. Cesc can pass the ball as quick as Ramsey or any other, difference was against United was Arsene asked Rambo to play deeper and let Song sit to mark Rooney, which allowed Jack and Aaron to link-up better. When Cesc plays, he plays much higher up the field to unlock the space for RVP, and there isn’t as good a link up with him and Jack, and Song doesn’t really sit then. Tactics v United were to stop Rooney, which worked perfectly. Cesc played a deeper role the season before and it worked better and Cesc has said himself that he prefers to play in a deeper role, but Arsene thinks that limits his goal-getting ability. As for the injuries, I see the cause of that being playing too much, too young. He is 24 and has already played 300 games for Arsenal, and as you said missed 200 for Arsenal and 60 odd for Spain. That is more the problem, and that is the concern we all have with Jack. Cesc can cope with the pace of this League and would be able to better with a full rest and pre-season under his belt. You’ll see the real Cesc next season, at Arsenal, not Barcelona.
@Steven Chambers, Cesc wants to leave. That’s the one thing you don’t address in your post, and it’s the one thing that really matters.
@Steven Chambers, Steve, you can keep your head in the sand… and ignore the situation…. or address it HEAD ON.
There are teams already buying, signing and bringing in NEW players for next season… with a few games left.
Its HOW ITS DONE.
We can wait and see…. or we can act.
Cesc doesn’t want to be at Arsenal.
To me, that’s all that really matters.
I don’t want someone as CAPTAIN, whose heart isn’t at the club.
@stag133,
AMEN.
nice,do you expect us to buy
How are we going to get Stars to come to Arsenal with out our stars .Jack is not ready nor is Aaron ready to take Cesc place we must keep our stars !!!!!
@Lancaster,
Players should come to this squad to play for the team not to play with whom we have on the team.
If players don’t want to come to Arsenal we have bigger issues than whether Cesc stays or not.
@DaAdminGooner,
“Players should come to this squad to play for the team not to play with whom we have on the team.”
Those are one in the same DAG. Players are professionals. Other than professional opportunities (good chance to win trophies, the chance to play with the best teammates and coaches), why would a player want to come to Arsenal over any other club? Unless he grew up an Arsenal fan, there’d be no reason.
By your argument that players should want to “play for the team, not to play with whom we have on the team,” you’re basically arguing that prospective signees should be just excited about playing for Arsenal if it were a Championship club. It would still be the same team right?
@DaAdminGooner, DAG. it doesn’t work that way. You can’t lure players to a shite team… or a team that has a legit chance to win… TRYS to win…
if you are viewed a SELLING team…. without aspirations of winning, nobody of note is coming… there are too many better options out there, where the money is just as good.