In the Aftermath: Arsenal v Blackburn Post Match Review
It was day set for celebrations. Particularly the celebration of Arsene Wenger’s 13th year at the helm of the club. It was only made better by the return (albeit just for the match) of Arsenal great, Thierry Henry. The Barcelona striker introduced prior to the match was showered with fan adoration and was to see a performance that he and his former mentor would thoroughly enjoy.
The backdrop set against the celebrative mood at the Emirates was only enhanced with the day’s opposition. 13 years ago at Highbury, it was Blackburn Rovers whom an unknown Arsene Wenger first managed against. In that match an Ian Wright brace saw them off. This Rovers side was slightly different as it was managed by Wenger antagonist Sam Allardyce and his club certainly came ready to spoil the fete.
Who wants to score next?
Inside of four minutes the visitors stunned into silence the home crowd as Paul Robinson’s end-to-end kick saw an N’zonzi header flick over Vito Mannone and go into the net from 10 yards out. The goal was made worse in that Thomas Vermaelen who had been rock solid going into this match weakly played the challenge and made it easy for the Blackburn striker.
But Arsenal were not to be undone and captain Cesc Fabregas nearly levelled the match on a looping header coming off a cross from Andrei Arshavin. But it was to be Thomas Vermaelen who brought this team back into the match. 2 minutes after Blackburn nearly headed in an own goal coming off a Van Persie corner, the belgian defender (wanna be striker) shot a low and hard strike into the left hand corner of the net. Cesc Fabregas worked his magic and smartly teed the ball up for Vermaelen who was only happy to oblige to score.
The game then took on the look of typical Arsenal matches with the Gunners owning 64% of the possession and only being level. Shortly after the Vermaelen goal, Paul Robinson tried the route one pass again, this time however, Vito Mannone decisively played the ball and did not allow for the Blackburn attack to get on the ball.
At the 30 minute mark the Gunners would again find themselves down coming from a counter attack they would’ve been proud of. Blackburn took the ball coming from a Robinson save and a feed to Emerton, who found Dunn sitting clear on the left. Taking the only shot he had, the ball careened off of William Gallas’ calf and changed direction. There was no chance the Arsenal ‘keeper would’ve got that ball on the deflection. The game was 2-1 and that oreboding feeling Arsenal fans typically have in these situations was very short lived and would never come back.
Two minutes later, Cesc Fabregas dissected the Blackburn back four to find Robin Van Persie who keenly settled the ball and with his “chocolate” foot thumped the ball into the far corner. There was not doubt this was going in. The game was drawn and the Gunners were clearly not going to settle for a tie.
The mix of Van Persie, Arshavin, Rosicky and Fabregas are showing themselves to be a powerful attack force and the linking play they are showing with each other is a thing of beauty. It seems that the four are starting to get a better awareness of where each other is on the pitch and the passing which a couple of weeks ago was a little off seems to be crisp and on target now. The play should only improve with the addition of Samir Nasri who is set to return late October or early November.
Much to Blackburn’s chagrin the Arsenal attack would net another goal 4 minutes after their equalizer. Fabregas who is showing what he can do to a team when given the space, found Andrei Arshavin free on the left and with a crisp left footed shot beat Robinson cleanly. Going into the half the game had 5 goals and suprisingly two were form the visitors who obviously showed up to try and steal a game from the home side.
The "little Russian" proves too much for Blackburn
Coming out in the second half Sam Allardyce’s men pressed the attack and looked like the would get their third. Their start was bright and they were clearly trying to take advantage of a defence that looked woobily in the first half. However, the back four had tightened up and the Rovers never really got a clear shot on goal.
Having set up all three goals in the first half, Cesc Fabregas was due his own. His hard work and midfield presence showed why when he is in form there isn’t a better play maker in the EPL, probably Europe. Attacking again, Fabregas had twice tried to set up another shot and this time fed from Tomas Rosicky, Fabregas teed up a shot that froze Robinson and found the upper left corner. Then in a move set to make tongues wagging, Fabregas celebrated his goal by running to the fans, pointing to them and kissing his badge. Let the pundits make no doubt, Cesc Fabregas, and all his class, is a Gunner. To this observer, it seemed that with Henry in the stands the heir apparent finally took the crown in both his hands and firmly placed it on his head.
Even at 4-2 Arsenal were clearly up to the task for more. Tomas Rosicky who in every game is showing no signs of someone who has had an 18 month layoff placed a shot that trickles just wide of the far post. Next to Fabregas the passing and ability of Tomas Rosicky were clearly too much for the Rovers.
However, a goal for the birthday boy (29 on the day) wasn’t in the cards and at the 69th minute Rosicky was substituted for Theo Walcott. Walcott was making his first appearance for the gunners this season after having only featured in 45 minutes of pre-season play.
After the fourth goal Blackburn showed some spirit in the attack and once again they tried to press the defence who now were getting support from other players and because they where back, it set up the next rush in typical Arsenal fashion. After another save by Mannone with support from the post, Arsenal moved the ball up quickly with Arshavin, Fabregas and Walcott flying up the field. In a site reminiscent of Walcott’s feed to Arshavin against Liverpool last season, the Russian passed the ball outside the box to Fabregas who just flicked it off to Walcott who “passed” the ball past Robinson in the far side of the goal. I say passed because the ball was clearly not shot past the ‘keeper.
Having played a part in every goal it was time for the Captain to get some rest and he was substituted for Welshman Aaron Ramsey. Also coming off was goal scorer Andrei Arshavin who was replaced by Nicholas Bendtner. At this point Blackburn were done and had football had a mercy rule I am sure they would’ve been begging for it. Much has been made about the youth of Arsenal but young legs last longer and they had clearly gassed the visitors at this point.
Aaron Ramsey’s play showed why he was signed and taking a page right from his Captain nearly fed in 3 opportunities for additional goals. On the face of it, it looked like the Gunners were trying to score a goal for each year of Arsene’s reign. Ramsey set up the final goal with a pass to Bendtner who left untouched outside the box smashed home an absolute corker of a shot. Now it was only a matter of time and the 3 minutes of injury time only worked to prolong the inevitable.
On the day it was a good match for Arsenal. People will cry out about the lack of defending but people have to remember, Arsene Wenger’s sides are not about defending they are about attacking. For all their strength defending in the early years they were players inherited by the Frenchman. Much like Barca whom Wenger says his version of the 4-3-3 is styled after, the point is to pass and attack and score. Clearly that kind of score line won’t always be the case as the big four teams will play us a lot harder. But if we are playing the likes of Liverpool, Chelsea and United (okay throw in City though you all know my feelings on that), with an attack of Nasri, Rosicky, Arshavin, Fabregas, and van Persie with the Vermaelator coming in too, I like our chances to match them and best them.
Cesc Fabregas was clearly the star of the day. His play on the ball was deadly at all times and if he wasn’t trying to score he was setting up his teammates to score. A lot was made of how Cesc had been playing preceding these last two matches. However, noone took into effect that for the last few years and with Spain he is playing in a 4-4-2 which plays him further back. Fabregas today admitted that the new role in the 4-3-3 is more comfortable for him:
“My preferred position is probably the one I am playing now. I feel most comfortable, but there is still a lot of work to do before it’s my best position,” he said.
“When I started at Arsenal we played 4-4-2 and I came deep to get the ball.
“In my new position I am higher up the pitch and I don’t get the ball as much as I used to, but I’m in a part of the pitch where I can do dangerous things like play the final ball.” – FourFourTwo Interview
Admittedly even I thought he was just disinterested and didn’t consider the natural progression he had to make from one formation to the other. Well, if this is how he plays when he has settled into the role it could be a very good year for the young Spaniard. His talent has never been denied but a season full of it hasn’t come. If this is the season then the Arsenal faithful are in for a good year as well.
Player ratings:
Mannone: 6 – Showed bad judgement on the first goal and couldn’t have been expected to save the riccochet off of Gallas’ leg. Showed ability to learn from mistakes on Paul Robinson’s second route 1 attempt and played the ball perfectly taking away any chance at a shot.
Gallas: 6 Not a monster day for the centre half. Tried to save Dunn’s shot but misdirected it past his ‘keeper. Other than that wasn’t really tested all day.
Vermalen: 7 – Doesn’t play the man well in the opening goal but more than atones for it with his wonder strike. Corrected earlier error and had good positioning for the rest of the game.
Clichy: 6 – Tested all day as Blackburn ran most of their attack down the wings. Held his own.
Sagna: 5 – Passing was off. In a 4-3-3 he is going to be needed to bring the ball up.
Song: 6 – a good solid performance yet again. Slowly staking claim to being THE holding midfielder.
Diaby: 6 – I only counted two give aways of the ball which to me is a good match for the lanky lad. Also had an assist in one of the goals
Rosicky: 8 – Should’ve had a goal. Was essential in the game plan and set up the Fabregas goal coming off a cool collection of a rebounding ball. Clearly does not look like he has suffered any ill-effects of his layoff.
Arshavin: 9 – There is such a joy watching him play when he is in the match. He relishes it and I think he is going to relish the attacking of Arsenal with the squad he has in support. Another amazing goal and always a threat with the ball with around the box.
Robin Van Persie: 9 – What is he going to do when gets the ball on his PROPER shooting foot? He is coming on in form with goals in his last three or four matches – each one more emphatic then the last.
Cesc Fabregas: 10 – MOTM – What hasn’t been said about his stellar performance? If teams give him the space to play, he will shred them. Involved in 4 goals and scored his own. Never looked flustered or shaken as Blackburn went ahead.
The Subs:
Theo Walcott: 7 – Comes back scores a goal. Misses one. Think he wants to play on this team?
Nicky B: 7 – Beautiful goal but to me it was offset by the three other attempts he had close in that he couldn’t finish.
Ramsey: 7 – Came on for the captain and it was like we didn’t miss a beat. Clearly a growing class talent.
Next few fixtures:
17 Oct: v Birmingham (Emirates – EPL)
20 Oct: v AZ Alkmaar (Almaarderhout – UCL)
25 Oct: v West Ham (Upton Park – EPL)
28 Oct: v Liverpool (Emirates – CC)
31 Oct: v Tottenham (Emirates – EPL) ESPN2 (US)
Now we just pray that during this international break noone gets seriously injured.
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We’re talking about the DM position because that’s the position that Denilson played essentially all of last season.
You’re so full of it. No one has mentioned a 4-4-2 but you. Why, because Arsenal haven’t even played an effective 4-4-2 since Vieira left. Hell, neither Denilson, Merida, or Ramsey were even at the club then. No one is talking about Arshavin in the Russian league except for you. Why, because it’s not relevant. It was clearly you that mentioned Merida’s ability at the U-20 level.
No one is talking about “daylight between players” or being “clear” the last defender in the offsides rule except for you. No one is talking about “10% of the ball over the line” except for you. Why, because what you’re saying isn’t anywhere in the rules of the game. Since you claim not to get it from the Brits, I guess that means it’s all just some shit you made up. Regardless, it’s still wrong.
Essentially the most meaningless comment spurt out.
You are the clown who was pretending I was talking about a 4-4-2. You are the one who does not understand what level means. And you are the one who for some reason the word “daylight” sets a bee up your bum.
I am right on the offside rule and what being closer to the goal means and right on Denilson being a big waste of time.
Infact in ALL our arguments over the years I have always been proven right, from Arshavin to …. well, to Denilson not turning into Beckenbauer anytime in his life. LOL.
Yes Fred you can call me Arthur3debayor even, I won’t be offended :-)
No one is refering to the DM position that Denilson supposedly played last year in the 4-4-2. In fact I have always argued that we did not play with an out and out DM in the Makalele mould at all, rather two box to box CMs, Denilson being the more DF of the two. However judging from last season no one could play that role adequately or consistently enough for us to feel totally convinced, not even Song.
Therefore it is stands to reason to assume as we have essentially lost 1 MF that the 3rd MF in the 4-3-3 would need to have DF qualities. Especially as you were always so vociferous in your condemnation of Denilson’s lack of DF quality. If you were not so full of ..’it, an astute mind would assume you understood that. However your ignorance or bias is so evident when you claim that an inexperienced essentially attacking player would compliment Cesc more than a far more DF one who has has shown the experience and composure this season that cannot be demonstartaed by the likes of Merida for at least a year or two. By no means is a 4-3-3 a more DF than a 4-4-2, it means you ahould have more cover through the centre of MF than you would playing a 4-4-2 with 2 CMs but it requires a far more collective DF attitude than a 4-4-2 with one or two DMs. In any any of those scenarios, at the moment, Denilson is the peg most likely to fit the hole.
As Joshua highlighted, using Fran in an AM role while playing U20 internationals as a barometer as to whether he can suceed in a CM role in a 4-3-3 in the EPL (which needs a lot more DF awareness and ability), is…. folly Fred. Regardless of YOUR perception of movement, Merida is not yet good enough to replace Denilson in our first team only Nasri has a real chance of doing that IMO. I would also like like to point out that the movement required of a someone who’s duties have a largely defensive edge are not comparable to one who’s primary focus is to support the attack.
Fred do you really think Under 20 international football is anywhere near comparable to the quality needed to compete at he top of the premiership?
Can you enlighten us by actually articulating how you can quantify that Fran has better “movement” than Denilson? Ah, then again to avoid you going into a nonsensical, unintelligible rant, how about trying to do that using a player that is at least comparable when playing his natural game i.e Diaby.
Go on then , give it a go! answer the questions properly and stop trying to score points all the time. with silly comments like “Continue confusing my concerns in a 4-4-2 of LAST season with the current one if you like LOL!” as I have made clear above the point is not the non existent Dm position of last year but rather the DF minded mentality. Therefore the only one “confused” appears to be you.
One last thing Fred, we proabbly all agree that Song could do with some established back up. We also agree that Merida, Wilshere and may I add Ramsey can be great players that will compliment Cesc “given time.” But woe to me to suggest that any of them should be given their time right now, with their inexperience and lack of DF qualities and displace a man who at the moment is the better man for the job, Denilson. :-D That’s Prince Denilson, to you Fred, son of Arsene Wenger ;-)
Your comment is a rambling mess in which you go half way to agreeing with me then turn back when you realize it.
You want me to give you “statistic” measuring movement, Adelover? Come on!
To beat through the incoherent mess:
– “In any any of those scenarios, at the moment, Denilson is the peg most likely to fit the hole.”
Wrong! I have been a big fan of the original 4-3-3 teams (Ajax and Barca, since the early 90s), and I can tell you the front two in the midfield three should be very proactive and creative. AND one of them should be a bit more robust. Merida does not fit the robust category. But Denilson doesnt fit ANY at all.
Ajax had: Seedorf and Davids or R. De Boer in front of Rijkaard.
Barca had: Bakero and Laudrup sitting in front of Guardiola. Currently Iniesta, Xavi or Keita.
When Milan played 4-3-3 in the early 90s: Boban and Albertini or Donadoni playing infront of Rijkaard or Desailly as DM.
Go ahead go figure how he fits in. His style of play fits best for a LOWLY long ball EPL team playing a 4-4-2 as the AM … such that when he makes an accurate pass more than 20 yards the stadium stops in wonder as they rarely ever see that down there.
Either way he must has won a lottery playing for a club like Arsenal. Same goes with Diaby and Almunia.
Denilson was viewed by most as the holding midfield player than the robust phsyical guy at Arsenal last year. He was more of the Rijkaard-Carrick-Guardiola-Xabi Alonso-Gilberto type of player in the side. He wasn’t the robust Davids-Essien-Mascherano-Vieira-Anderson of Arsenal. Those are two different types of players playing two different positions.
Many times last season, Arsenal played with two holding guys instead of one (Song-Denilson) in front of the defense and behind Fabregas when he was fit. It was a copy cat of France in the last World Cup that saw them reach the final with Vieira-Makelele in front of the back four and behind Zidane. It was good but not as good as what we’ve been doing this season.
I still prefer Denilson because Song still likes to go forward a bit and we need someone who’s disciplined enough to cover him so we won’t be exposed on the counter. All of the goals we’ve conceded this year, except for the Eduardo backheel against Liege and set plays, they’ve all seen us caught on the break with all of our midfield players forward.
Lastly, Denilson had more assists than any of the other holding midfield players. He never takes free kicks so the boy can obviously play the ball forward to good effect.
You mix your players completely. Carrick and Xabi are not “holding” players. Mascherano is in the first group and Carrick and Alonso are in the second.
The first group can be is the DM group: Rijkaard, Guardiola, Gilberto, Makelele and Mascherano are good ones.
Most DMs are robust, even Gilberto. You cant normally physically dominate them. And yes, Rijkaard was robust and a solid DM. ALL, I repeat ALL can tackle, head, dispossess AMs, intercept passes and also make short passes to teammates.
The other group you mention are perfect players for the SECOND position infront of the DM and beside the AM. We are talking 4-3-3 now, so stay with me and dont play “confused”.
Correction: Denilson and Song played together less than 25% of Arsenal games last season. And that was mostly towards the very end of the season. DONT RE-WRITE HISTORY.
PS: You still prefer Denilson to Song as the DM? So who exactly in our midfield is to do any tackling? Or that aint necessary right?
PSS: Which of Vieira-Makelele is Denilson? Your answer will be very interesting.
LOL! You responded exactly as I thought you would, Fred. You are so much fun to play with and simply wait for you to aggressively try to defend your folly with more folly :-D . Sooo predictable! I notice as I predicted you still did not answer any of the questions.
In spite of my “rambling mess” I in no guise agree, with you at all. sorry if I “confused” you again.
As for Denilson being the best fit for OUR 4-3-3, I think I have that right not “wrong!”.
Firstly I will point out that we are not trying to copy Barcelona or Ajax. According to Arsene he adopted that system because of the players and the quality that they have. In other words the system is one that he chose to suit the best attributes of his players and needs of his team. Secondly I will ask you to watch Xavi and Iniesta carefully and you will see that they both have the desire and ability to get stuck in defensively when necessary. This is a quality that they have probably had to develop over time in their game as they would have to have done with the creative aspect of their play. Merida does not have the DF or creative ability of Xavi or Iniesta yet. I think he may well have eventually, but time will tell.
Denilson had to do a job last year that he was not yet fully prepared for, he did quite well. Although I have never seen him to be an out and out DM, he was the most DF of our CM and adapted his game to fit in as such.
He did make a fair few interceptions even in games that I distinctly remember you saying he did nothing. He does keep possession very well another DF quality that he possesses. He also makes enough of a nuisance of himself to break up play on occasion especially when he has the DF foil of Song in support. Denilson was often exposed last year because he was playing in a position he was not yet familiar with and had no or little DF support from his fellow MFs, with marauding CB added to the mix he was always going to find it difficult.
Lastly I would like you to try to comprehend that our biggest problem last season was a DF one therefore we needed more DF security in our 4-3-3 than the likes of Barcelona in theirs. We have have creativity in abundance but DF we were/are lacking, hence Denilson is the the peg that best fits the hole. Now that he has Song as a foil and will have the luxury of joining the attack once again, we will all see the resurgence of the attacking/creative side that was obvious when he first came to Arsenal.
“Firstly I will point out that we are not trying to copy Barcelona or Ajax.”
BULLSHIT! We copied Barca pointblank. If we didnt copy then why is the 4-3-3 now being used through the youth ranks, afterall they have different players from the first team. Or all of the youth players now SUDDENLY better fit for the 4-3-3.
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And before you go on a false tangent, no, we didnt play 4-3-3 last season, and yes formations do matter. LOL.
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Are you asking me to watch Barca? I have missed at most 5 Barca games in the last 15 games. So dont tell me squat about em.
Xavi/Iniesta have the desire and ability to get stuck in?
And that is my major problem with Den, he has zero desire or ability.
Interceptions. His defensive interceptions are LOWER than that of Fabregas and Nasri who are supposed to be doing more creative work. Dont re-write history dude.
Finally, in the last paragraph, you meant Denilson is the SQUARE peg in the round hole. Wenger should have got a DM and failing that we should have not wasted minutes on a guy without the “desire or ability”.
The worst part of all this is that when Denilson returns next month or so, but is still playing like utter shit by the end of the season, you”ll will still be blaming his injury and crying about how great he was before … LOL!
So Fred are you trying to tell me Barcelona or even Ajax are the first team to play 4-3-3? I suppose not. Arsene has adopted a 4-3-3 that he feels will benefit this latest version of the Arsenal team. He feels it will work for us and of course if he has chosen to stick to this formation then it would make good sense to rear our youths with the same formation.
The point is Arsene choose to utilise the 4-3-3 because he feels that will suit us regardless of Barca or Ajax. And we will express it in a way that suites our team efficiences and defeciencies, we will not try to find players to clone Xavi and Iniesta to attempt to play that system in the way Barca does. As usual you are missing or choosing to miss the point.
As for the amount of times you watch Barca, that don’t mean squat diddly, I am not impressed dude. Again, to get back to the point I was making: Xavi and Iniesta have more DF ability than Merida. His creativity is not in question is DF quality. And I believe 9/10 OBJECTIVE Gooners who have watched Merida play for any length of time would agree that Denilson is stronger defensively.
I am not comparing Denilson to Nasri or Fab, I was comparing him to Merida. I have not read any stats that tell me about the amount of interceptions Denilson makes in relation to Fab or even Nasri. That is irrelevant as the comparison is between Denisln and Merida (everyone knows Denilson is more DF than Fab anyway regardless of that stat.)
Well time will tell how well Deni’ will playing at the end of the season Fred :-D . But so far this season he has been impressive don’t.
Oh by the way we did play 4-3-3 last season twice against United.
PS: Calling Denilson defensive is an hilariously false statement.
Zero tackling, zero heading, any AM I know will dribble him without even looking at him, he is slow and easily brushed aside AND his interception stats are LOWER than that of Fabregas.
So when you cite Denilsons defensiveness as his advantage you are really writing history there! He is a zero defensively.
And if we for a moment assume Wilshere, Merida and Ramsey are zero defensively as well, BUT at least they have a solid, creative, proactive attacking game. Ramsey least so, but still.
My prayer is that Nasri comes back quickly, Denilson stays out till March or April and Merida, Wilshere, Ramsey get the chance to serve as backup to Nasri/Fabregas.
2nd goal by Blackburn against Arsenal. Both full-backs pushed up at the same time. Song was left to cover with both centre-halves. Blackburn broke away with three against three.
Denilson would have spotted this. He would have dropped back in anticipation of a possible break-out. He might not have the greatest engine (unlike Flamini), he might not be a defensive tackler in the mould of Makelele or he may not have the positioning and awareness of Gilberto but he has more of those qualities than Diaby, Merida, Ramsey or Wilshere. I agree that it will be interesting to see if Nasri will take that position and be disciplined enought to make a better fist of it than others, including Denilson.
“Denilson would have spotted this.”
That is a revisionist statement and completely without basis.
Typically, I enjoy football debates but you merely argue for the sake of arguing. I see why no one bothers to discuss anything with you.
Lastly, the rules clearly state that the whole ball has to be over the line for the ball to be out of play or a goal. The rules don’t say that the whole attacking player’s body must be beyond the last defender to be considered offsides. These are two different rules. There is truly nothing to mis-interpret there but you’ve somehow found a way to confuse what in black and white. If you believe your way is right then, by all means, proceed. Good luck.
“The rules don’t say that the whole attacking player’s body must be beyond the last defender to be considered offsides.”
Actually that is what being closer to the goal means. I reference the rule about the whole ball crossing the line because both were clarified by FIFA before the 2002 world cup. Or maybe its those “stupid” German commentators who confused me. LOL.
Last question: Is the tackle from behind a straight red card? If so, why isnt it in “black and white”?
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Yes, I argue for the sake of arguing, indulge me.
Believe it or not, it’s actually possible for a player to be a foot closer to the end line and not have your entire body be beyond the last defender. We see it every game and it’s always called offsides. Why, because a foot closer is still closer. There is no mention of the whole body being clear or daylight or what ever else you may call it. You’re making shit up and trying to pass it off as law.
For the 2002 World Cup in Japan/South Korea, FIFA declared that a tackle from behind would be called a straight red card. As for the 2006 World Cup in Germany, they made no such declaration, neither was it in writing.
Actually the tackle from behind was since France 98. And it is still in effect.
Again, I will refer you to the the ball rule. You are not closer to the goal (or offside) till you have cleared the “line” of the last defender.
PS: Rules dont have to clarified before every world cup.
PSS: There is a reason they shroud their papers with muddy words like “serious foul play” opening it all up to interpretation.
And they have given their clarification of that as well as the tackle from behind ages ago, but it does not sit right with you because the word “daylight” set you off.
“Again, I will refer you to the the ball rule. You are not closer to the goal (or offside) till you have cleared the “line” of the last defender.”
How many times do you have to be told that you are wrong about this? You have used the word “daylight”, you are now using “cleared” yet you haven’t managed to point to one official FIFA/UEFA/FA/EPL statement anywhere to back up your statement.
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/archive/england/news/2002/0803/20020803offside.html
In the sixth paragraph of that article it says … FIFA directive
I have other links but they are in German and French.
NOT all rules are explicitly listed in a rule book just as not all laws are listed in the constitution.
In this case it is simply the interpretation of what “closer to goal” means.
As Sepp Blatter was explaining the refs committee decision as the only clear way of telling an offside AND he referred to the whole ball crossing the line rule in a similar context.
Some referee committee made the directive back in 02.
I was in Germany then, and I recall the joy of the German press, given that their top forward (Klose) was a “goalhanger” and offside veteran. And they were pretty sure the rule would help him at Japan/Korea.
I really need to get the next article out. This stuff is making my eyes bleed.
Hope you lads are all well – even Fred and Stag.
Working on a article on Herbert Graham and Arsene Wenger. Can’t wait to let you lot get a hold of that one. ;-)
No, Fred. My only reason that Denilson started so many games for Arsenal is because he was the player that gave Arsenal the best product as a DM, full stop. Neither Merida nor Ramsey have shown the desire and ability required to suggest they should play at DM before Denilson.
As for an idiot argument, who in their right mind would compare what some kid did at an U-20 tournament as an AM to what someone else did in the BPL/Champions League as a DM?
There were two games last season when Arsenal were completely dominated. They happened to be consecutive home games and Denilson happened to be dropped for them both. Is Denilson being dropped the reason we lost our unbeaten run? Would we have lost so badly had he played? Personally, I don’t know. I just merely stated facts. Can you make a more legitimate argument?
I’ve never lived in Britian either but I’ve lived in the US. Essentially all of the Arsenal games I’ve ever watched on the TV here have had British commentators. But I have talked football with people all over the world. The British media are the only ones I’ve ever heard talk about “daylight between players” in offsides; that is until the other day when you said it. You can’t be “arshed to rehash” because you know that your explanation of offsides was less than educated. The same goes for this 10% of the ball talk. It’s simple, the whole ball has to cross the line for it to be a goal. There’s no 10% rule nonsense. That point wasn’t even meant to be an argument.
JD, “who in their right mind would compare what some kid did at an U-20 tournament as an AM to what someone else did in the BPL/Champions League as a DM” I was about to say something similar but sometimes I cannot be bothered to reason with Fred, because he comes out with stuff that is simply beyond reasoning, like the above. It was the same Fred that claimed Denilson has not got a DF bone in his body and does not allow Cesc to play his natural game, yet he is suggests replacing him with a player that is not just less DF then Deni’ but also less DF than Cesc.
Fred, as for your amazing discovery that Arshavin is perfect for Cesc, what does that really mean? He does not support Cesc in anyway particular way. Cesc doesn’t need Arsha to function. Arsha feeds of Cesc’ through balls as does RvP, Adebayor and all our attacking players past and present. Arsha is a great player that will enhance any team, but I fail to see how he compliments Cesc in any particular way. If i were to look at players who compliment Cesc I would use Flamini, Hleb and Song as examples certainly not Arshavin.
Oh Arthur Adelover!
THe argument in that case was movement on and off the ball. Wherever you play does not matter when it comes to movement.
Am sure you where one of those who would rank Denilsons EPL and CL experience over someone like Arshavins UEFA cup and “lowly” Russian league experience.
And no, we are not talking about a DM anymore, (but you KNEW that), we are talking about the SECOND CM beside Fabregas. Continue confusing my concerns in a 4-4-2 of LAST season with the current one if you like LOL!
If Merida or Wilshere are given time and they get it right, and get it on with Fabregas, they will become our Iniesta-Xavi or maybe even better. THen the team can really be great.
We should still buy a mature DM to rotate with Song.
Who the heck is talking about DM position?
I am saying I would prefer Merida, or even Ramsey and Wilshere to the SECOND CM position in the 4-3-3 right beside Cesc. The one Diaby currently holds.
Go on! PRETEND you dont understand what I am talking about! LOL!
You have talking football with folks from all over the world???
Then what will folks like me have done? I have lived in over 15 countries! I hardly watch my football in English.
And thanks for FINALLY seeing my point. The WHOLE ball has to CLEAR the line.
The attacker has to “clear” the last man to be considered closer. I KNEW you will finally get your head wrapped around it. :-)
Oh yeah, offsides. If a player is in the attacking half of the pitch and is closer to the end line than the second to last player for the opposition, he’s considered to be in an offsides position. If while in said position, the ball is played forward (except throw-ins, corners, or goal kicks) and the attacking player becomes actively involved in play, the assistant referee, who is also level with the second to last defender, then determines who is closer to the end line. If he determines the attacking player is closer, the assistant referee then raises his flag vertically above his head and stands in a position on line lateral the position the attacking player was in when the ball was played forward, notifying the referee of an offsides infringement. Once the referee acknowledges the infraction, he either stops play and awards an indirect free kick to the defending team or allows play to go on as he sees fit (advantage or continuity).
The only people in the world who seem to not understand this simple rule are a few of the not-so-smart British commentators and the suckers who actually listen to them for insight.
I have never lived full time in England or watched British football commentary so your argument point is useless …. clear points were made in the earlier comments. Go read em. Cant be arsed to repeat myself to someone who thinks Denilson would soon blossom into Beckenbauer!
Josh’s summary of the offside law is accurate.
@ arsesession:
Read my comments above. Again cant be arsed to rehash.
PS: If the ball crosses the goal line but 10% of the ball is still above the edge of the line is it a goal? The ball is closer to the “goal” than not though.
If any part of the ball is touching the goal line or the vertical plane of the goal line, the law says it has not crossed and is still in play; same for touch line interpretation.
Same for the offside rule.
I knew we would end up on the same page eventually.
I missed you, Fred. Poor fella doesn’t understand what Denilson can do better than Merida. Doesn’t understand the offsides rule. Let me break it all down for you, buddy.
Last year, when Arsenal had lost their three DM players, Denilson saw a need in the team to do a job that no one else had shown the desire and ability to do. He’s not blessed with the natural physical attributes of a typical DM and it’s certainly not his position. However, he displayed a level of intelligence and desire to change his natural game in order to do a job effectively for the team.
Considering his young age, to show that maturity and selflessness to check his ego for the team deserves applause. Not only that but he did the job at the BPL/Champions League level that saw Arsenal go on it’s longest unbeaten run since the Invincibles side and mostly without Fabregas. Add to that, when he was finally dropped for two consecutive games, we not only lost both games at the Emirates, but we were completely demolished. Put Denilson back into the team and we play very well, earning a point at Old Trafford.
Any retard can see when someone makes a hard tackle or wins an aerial battle. Denilson doesn’t do either or even try to do something he can’t but rather plays within himself and still proves effective. When you keep things in perspective and remain objective, it’s hard not to respect what he did.
I missed you too, Joshuad. Havent had a good argument in a while!
Me not understand offside? You must be speaking about yourself.
What Merida can do better than Denilson?
1) Better movement off the ball.
2) Better movement with the ball.
3) FAR, FAR, FAR better long and short range forward passing.
4) I know Denilson is a pro at the sideways short pass, but am sure Merida can make those “precious” play.
5) A far greater understanding of Fabregas’ play and and a FAR greater possibility of greatness.
How many times have you seen Merida and Fab play together to claim he has a greater understanding of Fabs play, Fredrick?
Better movement with or without the ball is really debateable an arguement that not even “last word” Fred can win.
I would agree he has a far greater possibilty of greatness, but then again I would have said that about Diaby a year or two ago. Possibility is of little substance if it does not come to fruition. Until then lets judge the payers for who they are and what they can do now. I would say that Denilson is a more worthy of that semi-defensive CM than either Ramsey and Merida at this time.
I have watched him in over 20 matches for Spains junior teams, in Spain and in the reserve games.
He HAS better movement both on and off the ball.
Then again it is not really that hard to have better movement than Denilson or Diaby anyway.
As for how I know they will have greater understanding. Well, you just need to look at the type of player in question. It does not take a genius to know someone like Modric or Diego or Rosicky or Arshavin will mesh well with Fabregas.
Infact way back in summer 07, way before anybody knew Arshavin, 1 year before Euro 2008 and 1.5 years before he came to Arsenal I wrote about Arshavin and how he would be perfect for Cesc. I hadnt seen them play together either. Either way it aint too difficult to decipher that after watching both players.
Infact the ONLY positives I see from Denilson are that he is nice kid who doesnt make noise and he has a relatively accurate shot on him. When it comes to actual midfielding, am not impressed.
List of reasons you give for Denilson being a starter:
1) His precious ability to “check his ego”.
2) He does not do anything REMOTELY defensive but he plays “within himself”.
3) He is a good kid!
LOL.
Idiot argument points really.
Considering good, ego-less kids deserve to play for top teams in their careers, then Mother Theresa should be drafted in ASAP! I heard she was a good woman.
PS: Denilsons absence is the reason we lost to Chelsea at the Emirates and his presence the reason we took a point at Old Trafford last season???????????
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH!
Freaking delusional shit!
All this Denilson loving is all hilarious. I honestly cant see anything he can do that … Merida cant. Ofcourse Denilson is “senior” to Merida and Ramsey so he gets the minutes.
Denilson is good for when we are leading comfortably and we need to “ease” the game out, by taking out one of the strikers and putting him there. Even then, I would still prefer Merida.
One thing I would give him though, he does seem like a genuinely good kid (no complaining, no talking nonsense to the press, no trouble making, etc) unlike say Almunia, who is not only old and whack, but has a mouth full of bullshit.
“I honestly cant see anything he can do that … Merida cant. ”
START
Fred, you are probably right about Merida being a better talent than Denilson, but you know Arsene’s approach to player selection. We all see OR it seems that he has pet players and a pecking order.
When Nasri returns ‘soon’, I’m going to be closely watching our midfield selections – I believe Denilson & Diaby will lose out to Nasri.
Cesc, Nasri, and Song: our most threatening combination, but I could see giving Cesc some rest and having Rosicky or Nasri play the CM role – then Denilson or Diaby would partner with Song.
Let’s PRAY Cesc and Song get some rest.
Stag –
for the Birmingham match, would you rest Song? or Cesc?
if so, who’d you slot in for the match?
against Brum, I might rest both of them!
But in reality, when Nasri and Denilson are back, they should BOTH play/start against lesser competition.
(FA Cup matches)…
Song and Cesc need to be rested, they simply can not play every match.
We have Merida, Ramsey… if we don’t need to bring anyone in for cover (see Vieira)… then Wenger needs to let the kids play.
Its a catch-22, because if he rests Cesc, and we lose, he’ll get slack.
But that’s his own fault for not bringing in proper replacements & proper options.
I have watched Merida since he first came to the youth team set up. In the early days he had some really stand out games and a few really bad ones where he made crucial mistakes.
His passing is exceptional, like Cesc, he can deliver seemingly inch perfect long balls, he is that good! But for me, like Diaby, he lacks something. In my opinion he is not up for the fight. That is why Cesc at the moment is a far superior player he has greater mental strength generally and has a greater DF side to his game. Like Ramsey I feel Merida needs a little more experience and more of a defensive spirit to be ready to challenge Denilson in the pecking order. I don’t think our team is strong enough to afford the luxury of helping them develop more quickly by giving them starts just yet.
“I don’t think our team is strong enough to afford the luxury of helping them develop more quickly by giving them starts just yet.”
Isnt that what we have been doing with Denilson???
As for Denilson having more of a defensive spirit, I say, of what use is the “spirit” if he cant dispossess any offense player worth his salt?
Make no mistake against any above average team it will be left to Song ALONE to Gallas/Vermalaen.
That what we did last year help him to develop quickly. I would have agreed with you last year until the transfer window closed that that wasn’t a good idea. Once it closed, like this year I would say back what we have and play the best player with have.
This year Denilson looks better from what I have seen and is far more dependable than Ramsey or Merida. When the pressure is on Ramsey is prone to far worse mistakes than Denilson from what I have seen but generally he seems to be more of a threat offensively.
Denilson does break up play in the MF he has always done so to some extent but he has become more adept at it over time and with the right support i.e Song. Why you fail to see that and keep complaining that Denilson doesn’t even try is because you mind is already made up about him or you blink more often than you have your eyes open ;-)
No do understand your frustration with him at times last season. It apperared he didn’t chase and track back enough, never seemed to bust a gut when we wanted him to. He was always and maybe still is so conservative. But he has improved over time and I think that progress will be ever so evident this season you you wouldn’t blink so much :-D
I thought I would repost this here:
Andez, Song is the most DF minded of all 3, the one who is most adept at the holding role IMO.
When Denilson goes forward Song will cover 9/10 times and the same goes for Song going forward, Denilson covers.I don’t think it is a question of discipline at all when it comes to these two players. Both of them have times when they are not in the right place at the right time but that is true of any player. They seem to play well with each other.
The problem is when they played with Mr Diaby, it is not just that he is so offensive minded, he doesn’t win much tackles and doesn’t have that instinct to be in the right place when needed, most of the time.
I would probably say that Denilson is the best player to cope with Diabys defenciencies in game a tactically defensive game. A game that we would want to shut out the opposition, where CB only defend. That allows the CMs to be CMs i.e no need for the likes of Song slotting into the CB position to cover. That is what Denilson doesn’t do as well as Song. Song is generally better at filling defensive holes, but he needs to have cover to be adventurous as Wenger’ philosophy requires.
Denilson being more conservative last season did not make a lot of attacking forrays because he had no cover, I think with Song in there we may see the adventure and confidence of the Denilson of the early years return :-D
Then all will hail prince Denilson ;-)
Good remarks about these three.
IMO, Diaby is one season of play behind Denilson and Song.
In the Blackburn match, we saw “a Diaby” that made a conscious effort of passing first (support). For the most part, he was not holding the ball one touch too many. He did make one or two tackles, but there is room for
improvement.
I see Denilson’s real strength in two ROLE areas: in midfield, effectively serving killer passes for others to run on to;
without the ball, cleverly exploiting space in attack and then providing final pass to teammate.
I hope you are right in the prediction that Diaby will be as valuable as Denilson or Song in a years time (if that is an accurate presumption.)
I had high hopes for Diaby in that DCM type role. But I just don’t see enough improvement from him. He is great offensively and if he is unleashed he could score a fair few goals. Defensively I have seen no improvement at all over the years I have seen him. Sometimes I don’t think he even seriously tries to up his Df game.
Against Blackburn the only challenges I honestly remember him making were bad ones, either free kicks or the referee waving play on to the opposition. To be fair to him I did notice that he didn’t hold onto the ball at all unless it was necessary. Maybe Wenger has had a word with him about that. But generally he had another anonymous game apart from a lovely attacking spurt or two towards the end of the game.
You are right though, there is hope for the boy yet if he really wants to suceed in that position. However I wonder if he really has the mental strength or desire. If he had you would think he would work harder to try to make that position his own especially now Denilson is out.
Arshavin is much simpler. He looks to score goals, full stop. There is not much more to analyze about his game. His movements and dribbles are all about him scoring goals. He’s a second striker and that’s all he cares to do. I ain’t mad because he’s damn good at it.
Diaby has had the same problem for years; his vision sucks. He’s exceptional with the ball at his feet but his awareness is poor. As a result, his link up play and movement off the ball suffer a great deal, not to mention his awareness to know when not to push up in the attack. If he works on his vision, he can become world class and that must be the hope Wenger has for him. However, he has to recognize it as a weakness and put in a deliberate effort to make it right. If not, he’ll fail to realize his full potential. The game will be too fast for him and he will only be a top star in Germany or France.
When the going get’s tough, Diaby dribbles, because that’s what he’s good at. Like Mazza touched on earlier, when the going get’s tough for Theo, he hugs touch and runs fast because that’s what he knows he’s good at. They both have the potential to be world class but they have to put in a deliberate effort to make certain things right. We’ll see what they do.
Saw an interview of Arsene which suggested that Paddy was meant to be at our game but he got caught up in traffic or something.. I guess he didn’t want to have come all the way to London and not watch a game…
And a special note about THAT pass from Rosicky to Cesc, I don’t think there’s too many who have the technical ability and the courage to pull it off. Great to have him back.
That’s interesting Ozi.
There was a rumour earlier in this thread suggesting that Vieira is in fact on his way to Chelsea in Jan.
Maybe that is pure rumour or Vieira is telling Arsene porkies (porkies is Cockney slang for lies.)
I don’t know what this means for Vieira’s future. I’m sure if Chelsea wanted him he would likely join them and no one can blame him.
Although in this particular instance I do believe he was down to celebrate Wenger’s 13th anniversary.
Can Chelski even sign anyone? Or does that not take effect until after they protest the decision.
Good stuff here, as usual, and DAG should be thanked for writing up the game, even if he missed the crucial turning point ;-) (Your analysis of the actual play is exactly as I saw it on the replay so the ref got it right and Fat Sam should be censured.)
However, to complain, again ;-) As near as I saw it, RVP scored with his left, non-chocolate foot. And why does he call it his chocolate foot? Because it’s so sweet? Because it melts when the heat is on? Enquiring minds want to know….
Final tiny observation about our team….I haven’t seen that much football (only a relatively recent convert to the beautiful game, etc.) but it seems we have the greatest “heads-up” player I’ve seen in Cesc and the greatest “head-down” player in Arshavin. How does the former control the ball as he does while constantly scanning the field? And how does the latter seem to know exactly what to do with it when he never looks up? Maybe those who know the game better can answer my questions or tell me who’s better….
I think it’s because Arshavin is looking more to take players on and so he’s more focused on the opposition player in front of him rather than options around the pitch.
Whereas Cesc never tries to dribble past anyone and knows that nine times out of ten he’ll look for a runner so he keeps his head up.
To me it seems like Arshavin already knows exactly what (pass, dribble or shoot) he’s going to do with the first touch. It’s pretty amazing and I get excited in a way that I’ve never felt before(uh, nothing kinky, however…) when I see the ball headed his way.
With Cesc, I’m not sure if he really can see that much as he looks up, but I think it must be extremely unnerving to the defense if you’re trying to mark one of his targets.
Combined with Rosicky’s quick turns and the strange stuff he can do with his right foot there’s a lot for a defense to worry about, not to mention RVP’s left and his quick pull-backs (like a high-trotting horse, was it?).
It actually seemed to me that Blackburn put in a lot fewer of their usual bad challenges because they were afraid our boys would turn them too quickly and instead had to play a step off.
Arshavin’s head maybe tilted down OR appears down, but thats so opponents can’t read his eyes.
Secondly, when you run, your chin is naturally down. Even from the appearance of head being down, your vision can still effectively see everything necessary.
Watch Cesc more closely, not when he passes off, but when he receives a pass and a challenge is forthcoming. He allows the opponent to play his cards (commitment to the tackle), and then Cesc will casually move the ball away from the direction of the tackle, into other space. He’s even more devastating beating two players challenging at the same time.
By the way, Song has the same skills.
For Arsenal’s player talent, once the whistle blows, they react to ball movement and
opponents position(s) “instinctively”; our system of play is constantly morphing throughout a match.
termed Total Football by Dutch national coach Michaels in the early 70’s.
This is true, not to mention, spot on….
I spoke of my frustration with Diaby in that he seems several steps behind in having that instinctive quality, especially when it comes to getting back defensively. For some reason (performances late season last year?) I feel that Nasri, though so much smaller and slower, might do better amongst the near-geniuses (Cesc, TR7, AA23) but then you have to play Bendtner or we’re a team ENTIRELY under 6 feet tall or thereabouts–maybe Song and TV5 are 6′ 1/2″. Set pieces could be an issue….
Steve, agree about Diaby and his past play & about your Nasri observation. Nasri will add great linking chemistry and is disciplined for tracking back.
I’ve decided to give Diaby more time b4 writing him off. There is something special about his game that CAN BE HUGE FOR ARSENAL.
We do need some height from somewhere.
Andez, do I have to repaste the article again in which WENGER(yes lord Arsene) himself says we played the same system in games against United last season?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/leagues/premierleague/arsenal/6103762/Manchester-United-v-Arsenal-we-have-the-confidence-to-win-says-Arsene-Wenger.html
And here’s a the relevant snippet:
“Wenger is also confident that the change in formation he tried towards the end of last season [to 4-3-3] has the potential to catch United out.
The Frenchman is the first to admit that his side had been caught on the back foot in the Champions League semi-final and therefore gifted United with their second consecutive opportunity to win the trophy, but he is sure Arsenal’s new look side will go a long way in testing the resolve of Ferguson’s squad.
“That 0-0 result [against United in May] showed this system was the way forward,” said Wenger. “We also played that system against United in the Champions League game but it didn’t work. What changed, I feel, in the Champions League was that we were on the back foot and in the championship we were more adventurous and more going forward.
“At the moment, it works well for us, we have another test to see that tomorrow afternoon. We were too passive in the Champions League – it was more a mental problem than tactical.”
Case closed. Any differences – like interchangabliity- you see are all to do with personnel/chemistry improvements than formation. You can’t expect Walcott/Adebayor/Diaby(strike force against United away) to link up as well as Rosicky/Arshavin/RVP. Walcott is obviously at his best sticking to the touchline trying to skin the full back so obviously he will play wider. And guess what, if he plays again there this season, he will do the same.
Really formations are irrelevant , its all about player movement. Whatever you call it – Arsenal play best when there are no fixed positions for specific offensive players and everyone float around everywhere.
I remember that 0-4 Reading away game. I nearly wept(well no..) but it was just so so beautiful to watch the Arsenal that day.
Yep, that’s my point.
If you’ve got talented players on the same wavelength then they can afford to be a bit more flexible with their movement and not stick to confined areas of the pitch. It’s all to do with the blend of personnel and when the blend is right, they all accentuate each other’s games and that’s when the off the cuff stuff comes into the play, like the Rosicky cross to Cesc.
Even Rosicky keeping the ball alive for Cesc to score that goal. Last year Cesc would never have scored that goal cause no player last season would have been able to flick it back to him. This stuff goes way beyond formations. Wenger lets players do what comes naturally to them and with different players, different patterns present themselves on the pitch. Theo Walcott isn’t going to start coming inside prompting like Iniesta when he comes back in the team, he’s going to do what comes naturally to him – stay wide and try and get in behind.
If formations are SOOO irrelevant then why do are so many of them formed.
Infact why have so many legendary managers devised and patented their formations?
Saying formations dont matter is like saying tactics dont matter.
Its like playing chess free-style – no strategy. And that is the height of naivety.
As i said before, 90 % players…10 % formations.
If a certain formation is going to get the best out of a set of players then you choose it. Formations can also cover for weaknesses in the squad depth and be used for that reason as well. For instance having three centrally in midfield somewhat allievates concern over a defensive midfielder, at least more so than in a 4-4-2.
In general though, I don’t place too much stock in it. Arshavin and Rosicky are not suddenly going to turn into retards if they both play in a 4-4-2, and Theo Walcott is not going to turn into Andres Iniesta if he plays in 4-3-3.
I see what you are saying, but that 10% is the difference between finishing 1st and finishing 3rd or 4th.
Good players will make you challenge for the title….good formations and tactics in the “big” games will make the vital difference of the team either winning or falling just short.
@ Fred,
Most tactics in today’s game is centered around set plays (offensively and defensively),
and your correct about better teams leak fewer goals OR make the most from corners and set pieces.
The other issue is for the manager to determine his line up selections that will match up the strongest with your opponent – take away his strengths.
As Steve Bruce did a excellent job in fielding a team that could frustrate ManU.
Just read that Vieira was at the Chelsea match because THEY are considering bringing him in for cover… when Obi and Essien are at the ACN later this year.
So, if that is true… he’s good enough for Chelsea… as COVER, and not for Arsenal?
Please. I have seen him play this season, and he is not the Vieira of old, but he can still play well in spurts. That’s all we need.
Of course he wants to play for the FFF in the World Cup, is that a crime? Seeing how shitty France has been in recent years, he isn’t out of order in that squad either. Might not be starting there either.
If he is good enough to play for Chelsea in the middle, be it as cover … then he is definitely good enough for us as cover for Song.
No, stag, Vieira’s NO WHERE NEAR the Vieira of old. That’s the problem. Not only that but he’s obviously very desperate to go to the World Cup (the Tottenham links). Playing in spurts isn’t going to get him what he wants.
He’s not nearly the same imposing player that he used to be and unlike Deschamps & Makelele, that was what made Vieira a great player.
That is your OPINION.
That’s cool.
If he can play for Chelsea, he can most definitely play for Arsenal…
If he can cover for Essien and Obi, he can surely cover for Song and Denilson.
Luckily, you don’t decide …
;)
Good enough for Chelsea does not mean good enough for Arsenal, Stag.
We play very different systems and each manager has different requirements for his players. Song although capable of playing the DM Makalele role is expected to put in a lot of mileage supporting the attack and slotting into the CB, SB positions when neccessary. Vieira would not be expected to do this if he were playing at the DF point of a diamond midfield.
He won’t have to put in as much work for Chelsea.
I know, Chelsea have been better for a few years now.
Oh Stag don’t sound so bitter. Chelsea payed good money for their success they deserve it ;-)
Heaven forbid a team actually spends money on their team.
It’s not illegal, though Wenger thinks it is…
and you will sulk and complain if ManCity take our 4th place spot, that they didn’t earn it?!!?
At the end of the day, the players have to play the matches… if Arsenal wants to be on the outside looking in at winning titles, so be it.
But don’t blame Chelsea.
It’s called having ambition.
Josh, thanks for reiterating reality.
reiterating opinion.
I watch Italian football… he’s better than Denilson.
Okay, your opinion, my opinion…….
I agree, Vieira might be able to play effectively for 20 – 30 minutes (spurts) and if the club could afford the luxury of his use for only backing up Song at end of matches – okay.
However, if Song is away, injured, or ill, Vieira cannot play a full 90 minutes.
At his age, he is even more susceptible to injury (even during these shorter durations).
Lets wait another 8 weeks and see how the manager wants to invest.
Stag,
Is PV4 better BF4?
I’ll take him if he can slice defence the way Brett Farve did last Monday :)
Brett Favre is a BITCH, who is all about himself.
Paddy Vieira is a star who was always a team player.
Let’s not confuse the two.
Favre will be there in the playoffs to give a game away single-handedly, like he has every time over the last 10 years!
:)
If Paddy wasn’t all about himself he wouldn’t have had his head turned every year while at Arsenal. And he wants out of Inter so HE can play in the WC. It has nothing to do with the good of the team.
Arsenal SOLD Vieira. Just like they sold Henry. Just like they sold Adebayor.
They sell all their star players for PROFIT.
He was LOVED by his teammates, because on the pitch, he stood up for all of them, and protected the finesse players.
What have we won since Patrick Vieira was SOLD? The answer, is not a coincidence…
Speaking of opinions, yours seem to be the only one I’ve read anywhere that thinks PV has what it takes play for Arsenal again. Hell, Chelsea fans don’t want him, Inter fans don’t want him and his doors seem to be holding up against all the teams trying to get through it to acquire his services since he announced he wants to leave.
Chelsea fans don’t want him?
Fortunately for Chelsea, they don’t bring in players based on what their supporters want.
Chelsea PLAYERS have said they would want him.
That says something. Not fans!
Again, I’ve seen enough InterMilan matches in the last few years to think he has enough in the tank to HELP a team win. He is not THE PV4 he was in 2003, but he doesn’t have to be in order to contribute effectively.
And why wouldn’t he try to get into a regular playing role, if he feels he can still play, and why wouldn’t he try to get onto the French National Team?
Again, its called having ambition, something Arsenal FC lack.
lastly, I’ll repeat… what have Arsenal won since they SOLD Vieira?
It is not a coincidence.
You need a Vieira, or someone in his mold… he has never been replaced, and we ain’t won shit since.
I don’t think replacing Vieira is as simple as that. He really was a once in a rare player in his glory years.
And as to quoting whether Chelsea players want him or not is not the point. YOUR point of view is that Arsenal should bring him back. Is that the point of view of the players? I don’t know since no one has really said anything. The point of view from fans for all three clubs seems to be exactly the opposite of yours. That’s all I’m saying. None of the clubs mentioned give a shit what we as fans think about which players to bring in.
And it’s not like we’re hearing from a ton of Chelsea players that they want him to come in. I can only remember Drogba saying he wanted him in.
Hey Fred, here’s a copy of the offsides rule straight from the FIFA rule book. It’s a small handbook and the offsides is only one page long. It’s even in English. Those retards on TV are too lazy to read or too stupid to understand this one page.
Offside Position
It is not an offence in itself to be in an offside position.
A player is in an offside position if:
• he is nearer to his opponents’ goal line than both the ball and the
second last opponent
A player is not in an offside position if:
• he is in his own half of the field of play or
• he is level with the second last opponent or
• he is level with the last two opponents
Offence
A player in an offside position is only penalised if, at the moment the
ball touches or is played by one of his team, he is, in the opinion of
the referee, involved in active play by:
• interfering with play or
• interfering with an opponent or
• gaining an advantage by being in that position
No Offence
There is no offside offence if a player receives the ball directly from:
• a goal kick
• a throw-in
• a corner kick
Infringements and Sanctions
In the event of an offside offence, the referee awards an indirect
free kick to the opposing team to be taken from the place where the
infringement occurred (see Law 13 – Position of Free Kick
Still does not actually answer the question.
What does “level” mean?
According to Sepp Blatter from the World Cup 2002 onwards if there is an “overlap” of bodies it is not offside.
I clearly remember it was at that same time, the rule of when the ball crosses the line was also clarified to mean when the ball is out of bounds AND also not touching the white line. As against the previous interpretation of more than half of the ball crossing the line.
read your earlier post where you referred to the “fact” of what was in the offside rule.
You make some good points but for once admit you are wrong.
Wrong about what?
What does level mean?
It is interpreted the same way as the ball crossing the line out of bounds (ie. the ball has to have FULLY cleared the outer edge of the white line).
Same with the offside rule.
Funny how the “tackle from behind/red card” is not explicitly listed in the paper.
Because it doesnt have to be, the document is just a basic framework of the rules. And it uses VAGUE terms like “unsporting behavior”.
yes the laws are written to be guidelines, always giving the official to take into factor all of the environment of the match.; tackling from behind is no different than tackling from the side or head on.
Clean take away of the ball in the tackle – no foul.
Contact with the player in possession, direct free kick. (no card)
a) hard contact, ref’s discretion for yellow
b) dangerous, as studs up over the ball direct to leg- ref’s discretion yellow or red*.
* if playing at OT and the tackler is Fletcher, then you must factor in the SAF reaction.
Actually, ALL tackles from behind are meant to be straight red cards.
I dont think anybody who has been watching football since the 90s can deny not hearing when that rule or interpretation came in.
The tackle from behind used to be very common especially in Serie A.
Van Basten’s injury really brought attention to that.
Fred,
move on to another issue (other than the offsides law). Sepp Blatter is not the final
authority for the laws of the game.
This daylight business is from the ‘birther’s almanac.
See response above.
see my reply
Depending on which day of the week it is, Bergkamp or Vieira are my favorite player ever. Surely, stag133, you will remember that I was the main one raising hades when Vieira was sold.
For a moment, forget what you’ve known for years about Paddy. Have you seen that guy play THIS SEASON? I’ve seen him about four or 5 times and he’s a shadow of his former self; really sad. It was his physical presence; the ability to cover every blade of grass and put in crunching tackles that made him great. He can no longer do that, therefore he’s no longer great. Makelele, Deschamps, and even Gilberto were great but they had other qualities that made them great, allowing them to play at a high level well into their 30’s. Vieira’s only 32 and has been in decline for years.
Besides, Vieira hasn’t played the holding role since Petit left Arsenal. He’s been the box to box guy at Arsenal, Juventus, and Inter Milan. Fabregas is our box-to-box guy now.
Sure, Vieira’s good enough to be a squad player but his agenda is clear; to play 90 minutes every week. There is no way he’s good enough to do that at Arsenal and no way he’s willing to settle for less. That’s why I said he’s no longer good enough to play for Arsenal.
Vieira is perhaps willing to sell his soul to the devil, or worse, play for Spurs with a hope of getting to South Africa next summer.
I agree. I want Vieira no where near the team.
His game was all about physique and power and asking him to come in and be some clever holding midfielder ain’t gonna be pretty.
He doesn’t have the discipline for that role or the patience.
Anyway, I don’t want a player in our team playing a restricted role. You can’t afford that at the top level when you play our style of football. Song goes forward as well for us and he’s very good at it and makes a big difference. The holding midfielder is often the ‘free man’ going forward so I would prefer someone energetic and visionary going forward. Steven Defour, a name that has been mooted, would be my choice.
The thought of Vieira bores me to tears quite frankly. Lets spend some of that money and not take a retrograde step.
The thought of Vieira rejoining our club is intriguing but a BIG GAMBLE. Many still see him at his best (THE PAST).
He maybe competitive technically and tactically, but he is not able to meet the physical demands of today’s game.
Maz is right, we need to find a player that gives Arsenal long-term benefits.
Defour is a good option, maybe Arsene has someone already earmarked.
Yes, lets go get a 17 year old that will be ready in 2014.
I think Arshavin and Rosicky show perfectly what a bit of seasoning/experience can do for a young team.
I’m also favor adding some experience to the team……but after watching Vieira play this season, his future is in the past.
It’s going to be great when he comes back in January, and Cesc gives him the number 4 shirt, and takes 44, out of respect!
;)
Very nice article regarding our current discussion of why ManU are favoured. Also talks about that Dunn penalty.
http://www.football365.com/referee365/0,17033,8747_5613776,00.html
Capello was at Chelski / Pool match.
On the Premier League Show last night (FSC), they reported that Arsenal have offered Vieira a contract;
$70k pounds/week for transfer in January. (maybe this is just media gossip)
Didn’t Vieira play in Inter’s CL match vs. Rubin? So he would not be eligible for CL play for us?????? Like the signing of Arshavin last January.
I agree with DAG’s analysis of the no call penalty. Gallas’s fair tackle dislodges Dunn’s control of the ball and causes Dunn to loose his balance ( he is almost going down) b4 Vermaelen’s tackle. Dunn definitely not in control of the ball – anyway, it could have been called either way depending on your colors.
ManU v. Sunderland – note that Sunderland were playing a man down……adding to ManU’s pressure.
re: Diaby
most of you want to forget all the criticism placed on Denilson, Song, Gallas, and Bendtner over the last couple of years; Now we are seeing the fruits of Arsene’s patience & belief. There is a reason he is the manager and we are low on the food chain of football analysis.
The first two come back goals v. Blackburn, Diaby was the passing link to Cescs’s assists. Go back and watch the build up to Vermaelen’s goal; Vermaelen deny’s pass and b4 falling, plays ball in direction of Diaby who shields opponent as he’s turning with the ball, dribbles a few meters, plays the ball to Cesc, who then lays it back to Vermaelen who is trailing the play.
For me, maybe not others, I’m seeing a transformation in Diaby. As Arthur mentions earlier, it HAS been an issue for this player to adapt to his defensive obligations; but players perceptions about their roles can
change (especially when they are in a mix with BETTER players); we will have to watch and see which path Diaby choses.
I agree with Fred. We DID NOT play 433 last season. The wide players were too far wide last season. And they surely didn’t interchange their positions that much.
And I also agree with Stag, I too believe Vieira will be a good addition comes January, for:
(1) As cover for Song during ANC
(2) Paddy is now 33, he should aware that he’s no longer “THE MAN”. So both he and Cesc would know where they stand.
(3) Vieira is one of the real lion hearts who’s more English than French in terms of his mentality. Should serve as a good inspiration to the younger players, and offer us leadership.
(4) As a stop gap, he would not hinder our younger players progress.
(5) He understand the Arsene game perfectly well. I don’t think he needs time to adjust to the team. Hell, even when he just arrived that many years ago, he made an impact on his debut.
(6) nobody expects him to play every game. And he can’t anyway.
So i can’t really see any downside there.
Andez, the problem is Vieira will not settle for being a back up for Song, I think that would be quite humiliating for him. And he will never get into the French NT based on his performance while Song is away for a few weeks at the ACN He needs to be playing week in week out to impress, he would not be deserving of that at Arsenal.
It is funny all those people who were saying we should have bought Lorik Cana based on some dodgy YouTube video are oh so quiet. Now they know he is not much more than average.
sometimes i wonder whether Capello is an Arsenal fan! :)
I mean, the same day Arsenal played Blackburn, there was another bigger game between Chelsea and Liverpool.
I didn’t watch the Chelsea game so I am not sure whether he’s there. But he was at the Arsenal game, not for the first time.
I wonder who he’s looking at? We had no English player starting the game, Theo only came on with 20 or so minutes left.
Surely if he wanted to check on his England players’ latest, to attend the Chelsea V Liverpool match would have made much more sense. And it’s played in London too.
Maybe Capello has made up his mind about the Chelsea and Liverpool English but hasn’t made his mind up about Theo and expected him to play some part in the game.
Or maybe he was hoping to catch a glimpse of Englands No:1 Big ‘Al ;-) . No seriously I think he wanted to have a look at Paul Robinson, there would be no better team to test where he is at than Arsenal
The commentator said that Capello was going to Stamford Bridge after the Arsenal game. Maybe the TV cameras didn’t focus on him because of the wonderful entertainment on offer on the pitch. ;) Maybe he got stuck in traffic.
PS: He was watching Paul Robinson. :)
Let’s get real here – WHO CARES whether it’s a penalty or not? And in all HONESTLY, I am glad a ref made a call which in favour of us. Yes, I am biased. But hell, I never pretended to be a NEUTRAL anyway.
Does anyone believe Man Utd fans care about whether Rooney dived winning their penalty against us?
Does anyone believe England fans care whether their WC 66 final goal crossed the line or not?
Does anyone believe Argentina fans give a damn whether Maradona scored with his hand against England in WC 86?
Hell, that’s the beauty of football, everybody takes side. That’s what made a victory FUN and ENJOYABLE. That’s what made a defeat hurt.
During the Blackburn match, the TV commentator was still saying how he disliked Ronald Koeman. Why? I think all England fans know why. He’s talking about a WC qualification match against Holland when Koeman did not get send off for a foul, then scored from a freekick (that never should be given) and thus put England out of World Cup Finals (US 94).
We are now in 2009. Yet the guy still can’t get over an incidence happened 15 years ago. Yet had him being a Dutch, he wouldn’t have care would he?
Very good point ‘Dez. Why some people want always want to bring a negative spin on a great victory I don’t.
Ferguson is the darling of the British media because he is British. He has been knighted and is probably part of some all powerful secret society that gets him all sorts of favours.
Rafa Benetiz came out publicly to say Alex was favoured. What surprised me so much was the media reaction. Although Rafa was very calm in his delivery they ALL described it as a rant and did there best to belittle him. They even tried to blame Liverpools subsequent drop in form on Rafa’ “rant”. If you listen to Wenger’ take on the issue it appears in an underhand kind of way that Rafa has a point.
One thing I learnt studying sociology and have seen from my own experience that the media has a massive, beit concious or subconcious influence on peoples opinions. Arsenal dubbed as the French and foreign threat that is destroying English football has played against us in the eyes of the officials over the years. I believe Fergie’/ManUs alleged Britishness has worked in their favour over the years.
An obvious example is when we outplayed ManU at Old Trafford this season. After we had hit the post and narrowly missed a few more, ManU ran up the other end had a chance of their own and the commentator said how it could have easily been 4-1! to ManU. Everytime we played they would go on about how few Englishmen we had in the side. There is a bias whether you are over here to see and here it or not. It is speculative, hard to prove but none the less IMHO it is true.
Excellent analysis!
I think everybody knows Ferguson got away from a lot of things he said that should others managers say the same things would most likely be earning themselves a touchline ban.
Referees are human. They would inevitably get affected.
The best example – when Man U beat Man City with an “injury time” goal, he got his 7 minutes injury time, and his team won, so he said nothing.
But when they drew Sunerland, he complained about Alan Willey not adding enough injury time.
And went on to question Willey’s fitness level.
Now if you were a referee, would you wanna take the risk to make any on the pitch decision to upset Ferguson?
Hey, referee today is a full time job. They got a family to feed too.
So it’s far easier for the referee to make life easier for Man Utd than to make life difficult for themselves.
Human nature.
So at the end of the day, I’d blame the FA. If they want the whole world to RESPECT the ref, they have to make sure every manager does, not just every manager minor ONE.
You don’t care if it was called a penalty because it was NOT called against Arsenal. Otherwise, it would be a major talking point/ excuse… if the shoe was on the other foot.
Excellent performance by the boys yesterday. We’ve still got guys yet to come back. Let’s see if we can keep more people fit.
The ceremony for Wenger and Vieira was in town but at the Chelsea/Liverpool game. What up with that? I don’t know; just one of those things that makes you go, hmmmm. Poor guy’s really trying to get to the World Cup next summer. Too bad he’s not good enough to play for Arsenal anymore.
Fred, I told you that you can’t listen to those guys on TV. Most of them are idiots. They’re the only assclowns talking about daylight in the offsides rule. It’s not that hard to pick up a rule book and read, especially when you know you’re going to be on TV.
I thought Vermallen was lucky yesterday. The penalty claim was certainly a foul. But there was another instance where he kicked the crap out of somebody on the right touch line and the referee only awarded a throw. Thomas should have been booked for that. The reality is we’ve gotten our share of favorable calls (and non-calls) this season in quite a few games. I’m not complaining.
Paul Robinson lets in six goals and gets called into the England team. Wow.
I really wish we had cover for Alex Song. He’s been absolute dynamite this season and is continually improving. His season is going like Denilson’s last season. I don’t know what our schedule looks like in January but I hope we don’t miss him and Eboue during the ACN.
People say Eboue’s brain dead but I dont’ see that. His only problem is finishing. It’s mental. I coached a guy like that before; my best player but he lost his nerve evertime he got in front of goal. He links play and moves off the ball as well as anyone in the BPL. If Walcott had Eboue’s qualities, Theo would be a bad ass.
Having Tomas back is like a breath of fresh air for Fabregas. Rosicky draws so much attention and makes so much space for Fab to operate. People say the day Eduardo broke his leg was why we lost the title two seasons ago but I say us losing Rosicky was the turning point. It’s nice to have the little maestro back and I love how Wenger’s managing his play time. Let’s hope that injury is truly behind him.
Vieira could most definitely play for Arsenal in a “role”… meaning he could come on for Song late, and even give him a day off in the FA Cup, and against some teams.
He’s 32 not 40.
He would be a far better option than Denilson.
Eboue has more issues than finishing. He dives, he gets cards for being a jack-ass, and yes, he can’t shoot for shit. He’s a good back-up for Sagna.
On the subject of commentators I watch the whole game on mute except when Martin Tyler and Andy Gray comment. The rest are such utter rubbish that it is hard to beleive. When Gallas was injured 4 a bit and was off teh field — “And Arsenal’s captain is of…” Sheesh.. it hurts to hear them.
To be honest, I don’t mind any of the commentators.
Are you perhaps disputing the FACT that the offside rule states there has to be “space”, “daylight”, “floodlight”, “fresh air”, “void” (call it whatever the heck you want) between the defender and attacker???
Or are you just offended by the use of the word “daylight”?
Offside Position
It is not an offence in itself to be in an offside position.
A player is in an offside position if:
• he is nearer to his opponents’ goal line than both the ball and the
second-last opponent
A player is not in an offside position if:
• he is in his own half of the fi eld of play or
• he is level with the second-last opponent or
• he is level with the last two opponents
Offence
A player in an offside position is only penalised if, at the moment the ball
touches or is played by one of his team, he is, in the opinion of the referee,
involved in active play by:
• interfering with play or
• interfering with an opponent or
• gaining an advantage by being in that position
No Offence
There is no offside offence if a player receives the ball directly from:
• a goal kick
• a throw-in
• a corner kick
Taken from fifa.com, rules for 2009/10
No mention of space, daylight, floodlight, fresh air, void or anything like that.
See response to Josh below.
PS: Song’s season is not as horrid as the season Denilson had last year. Yeah, sure Song has misplaced one or two passes, but he has been IMMENSE this season.
I cant imagine Fabregas having to defend more, like he was doing last season instead of orchestrating the attack.
<>
Nice to have you back here Josh :-D . I was starting to wonder whether you had become another causualty in the “war on terror.”
Anyway I was thinking the same thing about Paddy being at the Chelsea game. I wonder if it is sour grapes, he didn’t want the attention or he just wanted to see what he thought would have been a better game. truth is I have always questioned Vieira’ loyalty since he considered leaving us for United, I have never held him in as high a regard since.
You are right he is not good enough to play for us week in week out and that is what he needs to get back into the France side. IMO I would much prefer to have Song playing in that position.
I was at the Blackburn game and although I was high behind the goal at the other end, it was quite obviously a penalty, judging from our players reaction, although I did not see the contact. I remember seeing Dunn fall in the box surrounded by three of our players and the 3 of them stop for a second or two. I exclaimed to my friend what are they doing, they just stopped as if hey expected the ref to blow. Diaby was the first to realise the ref wasn’t gonna blow and eventually cleared it. We got lucky there.
But hey, we were always going to win hat game. The swagger we had, oozed confidence, when it was 2-1 it appeared our boys knew it would not be one of those days. Walcott looked fantastic when he came on too, he would make a great super sub, even Diaby looked good once it was obvious we were going to win and he was allowed to go further forward.
I was bitching about Diaby all game, but I think if he plays in an attacking we see the best of him. Unforetunately when Arsene asks him to be a disciplined DF player he is trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.
but one problem of Diaby is his lack of discipline.
he spent most of the time so high up the pitch (even more advance than Cesc at times).
the 2nd goal we conceded pretty much showed that – not that our defenders/midfielders are bad at defending, they are just NOT THERE.
Both full back pushing up, our 3 CMs nowhere to be seen (on our own half when Rovers were starting a counter attack), leaving our two CBs taking on 3 Blackburn attackers.
On another occassion, I remember seeing Song chasing a loose ball down the left wing, I instinctly tried to take a look who else was covering our defence… then i saw Diaby was inside Blackburn’s penalty box..
That’s one reason I perfer Denilson to Diaby. As Denilson was the most disciplined CM in comparion to Song and Diaby.
He may not be a natrual defensive midfielder, but at least he got the SENSE to play the holding role.
Saw an interview of Arsene which suggested that Paddy was meant to be at our game but he got caught up in traffic or something.. I guess he didn’t want to have come all the way to London and not watch a game…
And a special note about THAT pass from Rosicky to Cesc, I don’t think there’s too many who have the technical ability and the courage to pull it off. Great to have him back.
Andez Song is the most DF minded of all 3, the one who is most adept at the holding role IMO.
When Denilson goes forward Song will cover 9/10 times and the same goes for Song going forward, Denilson covers.I don’t think it is a question of discipline at all when it comes to these two players. Both of them have times when they are not in the right place at the right time but that is true of any player. They seem to play well with each other.
The problem is when they played with Mr Diaby, it is not just that he is so offensive minded, he doesn’t win much tackles and doesn’t have that instinct to be in the right place when needed, most of the time.
I would probably say that Denilson is the best player to cope with Diabys defenciencies in game a tactically defensive game. A game that we would want to shut out the opposition, where CB only defend. Allowing the CMs to be CMs i.e no need for the likes of Song slotting into the CB position to cover. That is what Denilson doesn’t do as well. Song is generally better at filling defensive holes, but he needs to have cover to be adventurous as Wenger’ philosophy requires.
Denilson being more conservative last season did not make a lot of attacking forrays because he had no cover, I think with Song in there we may see the adventure and confidence of the Denilson of the early years return :-D
Then all will hail prince Denilson ;-)
Look there was no conspiracy here. I didn’t mention the missed penalty because I was looking through “red coloured” glasses. I did it because I was more or less summing up the scoring.
Fred sometimes you are too quick to look for some ulterior motive for something when nothing exists. My piece was long enough without it.
Yeah it was a missed penalty. They happen all the time its football and yes, I believe some clubs get the benefit of the doubt more than others. I also believe refs give English players a little more leeway than foreigners. It happens.
Get over it and play the game.
I actually brought it up, not Fred.
You didn’t mention it, but who else did on the site?
Vermaelen isn’t English, so he didn’t get the benefit because he’s English. Perhaps there is a conspiracy that Arsenal should win, so the refs didn’t call it?
LOL
I am going to put a bit of conjecture out there as to why possibly the ref didn’t make the call.
MOTD2 has a real good break down of the play. Taken by itself, Vermaelen got lucky not to be called for the foul But here’s the thing – Dunn is actually going down before the move in by Vermaelen.
Dunn is playing the ball on the box, Gallas comes in gets the ball first which starts Dunn moving forward in a falling motion. When Vermaelen comes in Dunn has not composed himself and is still falling.
Again just conjecture, the more likely answer is that the ref didn’t see it or from his angle thought Vermaelen got the ball first.
Yeah, I think it was Diaby blocking a clear view for the referee. We joked on game day chat that Diaby finally contributed something good to the team. :)
?!?
that’s laughable… his trips Dunn, thats why Dunn goes down.
But whatever, I just point out the facts, when its too one-sided.
So decide – were they bad decisions or not? I mean sure there’s plenty more but it doesn’t take away anything from bad decisions given IMO. I vote someone starts keeping track.. sadly no one has that kind of time.
Its also extremely strange to find that Arsenal fans somehow use an occasional instance of a break which actually isn’t even that big a break (unlike say Eto’os offside in the CL final .. no I do not want to debate about how far offside it was) to prove that ManU are not favored. And try so hard to do that. Its usually the other way around. But then ManU are winners and we are not. So everything to prove that…somehow.
We’re not squeaky clean and we get the occasional break usually against teams whom we’ve dominated throughout (and when ppl will point fingers that we got breaks too) – but we get more than our fair share of terrible decisions whe it comes to the crunch. More than ManU will ever get in a calendar year.. ever.
The truth actually was said by Mark Hughes after the game. He said not in those exact words – its hard to take .. we got a lot of those at Old Trafford, but its hard to take when its on the other foot now.
Still though – continue trying to find holes. Its a message board after all .. just a message board – nothing anyone says here means anything ;).
Eto’os goal was not offside. There has to be “daylight” between the defender and attacker for it to be offside. There wasnt.
Is the word “daylight” in the offside rule? Don’t think so.
And where in my sentence that I say the word “daylight” was in the offside rule?
Don’t be pedantic. You say that there has to be daylight between the defender and attacker for it to be offside. In my reply I ironically ask where the word daylight is in the offside rule.
You are mistaken that there must be daylight. It is a common mistake made by many commentators.
So if half a leg is offside or he’s bent his upper body forward .. its not offside? I’ve seen tons.. tons of them given. Either way man .. point being when it comes to the crunch we will get rubbish decisions – we will have to win despite them. If and when we fail our other weaknesses will be pounced upon while the other team’s strengths will be gloated upon and claimed that they “know” how to win.
As for the first sentence, NO, those are not offside situations.
There has to be visible space between the defender and the striker.
FIFA made the rule before the world cup in 2002 to help the strikers.
The linesmen regularly get it wrong, not because they dont know the rule but because you have to be on the EXACT line of play or the angle will deceive you.
Plus the action is happening very, very fast.
All in all Eto’o was not offside.
Its grey really. Lets drop this here – agree to disagree that is.
LDE, it is ridiculous to hear “conspiracy”… or think that the league / refs favor ManU. That is utter bullshit.
So, I will continue to point that out.
Then we get a major break with no penalty being called on the Dunn/Vermaelen play, and its not even mentioned!
I don’t do one sided debates! We had our chances at ManU, and we CHOKED. Diaby heads into his own net, and we lose the match.
With experienced players, more of the Arshavin Rosicky mold… you don’t have that happen as much. That is when experience counts.
I see no better advertisement for what experience does for a squad than those two, and how important they are to the team.
If we had a few more, such as in DM and keeper, we would be favorites to win the league.
(1) there is injury time and there is enough for MU to score time.
(2) Vermaelen/dunn has been mentioned everywhere, but no mention of the push on Gallas in their penalty area.
(3) Penalty would have made no difference except to the margin of victory.
1) as noted previously, as far as I know … there are TWO TEAMS playing injury time. Both teams can score goals, but United find a way to score more often than not. Why can’t the other team playing the “extra time” score a goal?
2) the Vermaelen penalty was NOT mentioned HERE, on this site, that’s all I was talking about, not other sites.
3) Penalty COULD have made all the difference in the world to Blackburn, your are hypothesizing with Arsenal Red sunglasses on…
Thats beside the point. Of course if you keep giving a great team chances they are bound to take it better than others. The point is whether extra time exists or not. If it does.. fair play to United. A lot of time it doesn’t.
Its like saying .. Put Ronaldo, Pele and Chris Samba in front of goal with the goalie to beat. They all have “equal” chance why don’t they all score?
You are right.
Its 100% a conspiracy between United, the referees, and the league.
They all want United to win.
That answers nothing. You have not refuted what I said and have just called halt.
Although that isn’t a bad idea coz I do think officials will bend stuff as much as they can to help United win. Not conspiracy.. but they’ll bend it.
LDE, you are delusionally biased toward Arsenal.
You think there is a conspiracy, a bend, a fix, a lean towards United. I think that is insane. Why would they want the same team to win all the time? Why United?
Are they paying off the league and officials too?
If I felt the fix was in, or the league was biased, I would not watch the sport.
1) Yes, of course there are two teams playing extra time but Old Trafford extra time only occurs when Utd. are behind or have the momentum in a draw. If Utd. are drawing a game with 10 men at Old Trafford and under pressure, you won’t see six minutes of injury time.
yes, you are right.
It’s a conspiracy. The league is fixed.
They make sure United win.
Couple thoughts on the game:
Positives:
1. I am thoroughly impressed with how good Vermaelen has been.
2. It is ridiculous how much better we are – and how much more confident I feel – when Arshavin and Rosicky are on the field. They provide the experience, ambition, and on-field leadership that we need. They also set an excellent example for younger players like Walcott and Vela who I think will benefit immensely playing behind them.
3. Cesc was fantastic and it was great to watch him kissing the badge after scoring a beautiful goal. I believe he likes being at Arsenal and will be our captain for a while. P.S. I don’t think it hurts that Henry continuously talks about his love for the Club from Barcelona.
4. I thought Mannone was challenged on several occasions and made some nice saves.
5. I thought Song was great after not having performed up to par in recent games. I really wanted him to get that headed goal toward the end of the game. He drilled it.
Negatives (hard to have any after that performance):
1. From what I see, the left side (Clichy) still seems to be the defensive liability. On the Dunn goal, Clichy was once again not in position at the beginning of the play and all the other defenders had to shift to compensate. The finish was unlucky, but Blackburn was able to press deep because they had time and space.
2. Diaby was still totally anonymous for much of the game. I’m not really sure where I see him fitting in on this team.
In summary, Blackburn aren’t great, but they did threaten on occasion. However, we were sublime and showed the world how football should be played.
Its not just Clichy really. The entire team is so far upfield with both fullbacks as well.. that its unreal. If Clichy’s upfield Sagna covers and viceversa – If both are upfield the midfield drops back to protect. None of that happened.. we got caught. Not WillyG’s fault or Mannone – though you could argue Gallas could have tackled earlier which might’ve led to a red card though had he mistimed.
But how come it is ALWAYS Clichy that is “caught” out up front?
This is not the first time.
Its the system Fred. He is encouraged to attack so much that he is caught up front a lot. Its not only Clichy, the whole team is so attack minded now that they are almost always on the halfline or ahead. Since when did you see a CB score so many goals in 8 games? That itself shows something.
But by and large Clichy is still better than loads of LB’s and is definitely better than Silvestre(shudders) who everyone were bigging up when he got here and asking AW to play him at LB instead.
Both our full backs will get caught up front in the new system. We are blaming Clichy for Dunn’s goal, but Sagna was also nowhere to be seen (he was challenging Diouf near their goal line).
Watch the Liverpool vs Chelsea. We may all hate Cashley, but he is light years ahead of Clichy when it comes to defending.
With our fluid system, some players will get caught out of position. Others have to compensate. It is easier said than done but we need to sort it out.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/eng_prem/8289869.stm
Lee Dixon endorses my view. :)
Ash is, and has been, one of the best backs in the world. When he fled for Chelski’s cash, people said Clichy was just as good. That, is just not true.
PS: Saying that Clichy is better than Silvestre is not saying much.
False comparison trying to put him up against Silvestre, when we all know Clichy is competing against Gibbs and Traore.
Silvestre was bought as a CB.
As for the system, yeah sure, the wing backs will be caught out…..but why is it that he is getting caught out FAR more times than Sagna.
And should he really be bombing forward anyway? He is an offensive nonetity.
As for him being better than most LBs around, I think that is very disputable considering he is useless upfront and defensively suspect.
To be honest I dont think he is any better than Gibbs.
No that wasn’t the point. Ofcourse he is competing against those two. My point was that people were calling for him to be replaced by Silvestre last year.
He needs to go forward more as a decoy to drag the RB out of play so the central players can play their game more easily. He isn’t as terrible as you suggest either – apart from Cole and Evra on his day – I can’t think of too many great LB’s around – not in the premiership anyway. His pace is his biggest strength – in the league where a lot of players are nt that intelligent and will just go down the wing and cross Clichy will do just fine. Its the same as Theo but in a defensive sense.
As for the flowing football, the key for me is Arshavin, Fabregas, Rosicky. That’s a near perfect trio when on form. What one lacks, the other has, and vice versa.
When those three are on the pitch, I think you can have Vela or Eduardo up front, or even Bendtner, and we will still be fine. There’s not a major drop off in quality.
The same can’t be said for the midfield trio. Whoever comes in for them isn’t in their league. Nasri is decent but still has a way to go, and Walcott is more of a forward. Eboue will do well against crap teams but fall of the map against a decent one. So, keeping them three fit is critical.
exactly, so that’s why its imperative that we rotate players and not play those 3 and Song into the ground.
As for Walcott being played in his best position, probably, but I still think he has much improvement to do before position even comes into the equation for him.
Last season he played in that exact same position over two legs against United and was comfortably handled by Evra. He did okay against Chelsea there in the 4-1 defeat and the F.A Cup semi final.
It some respects the position might be a hindrance to Theo because with one up front he’s only got one option to pass it to if we’re counter-attacking. His final ball and vision are not his strong points so if he’s only got RVP up front waiting for a ball, he will have problems. When your playing 4-4-2 there two players there providing a possible target, so it makes it easier for him.
It could work slightly differently too. In that Theo doesn’t have to create too much in this system. He can concentrate on being a runner. And he can finish.. so if Cesc, RVP, Mozart , Arshavin , Nasri, Dudu, Vela even .. all contribute.. Theo doesn’t NEED to find RVP. If 3 out of that 6 are on form every game mark my words.. Theo will score 15 this season. Bring on the KoolAid!!
p.s.. if I ever get to the USA again I must drink KoolAid once.. it isn’t alcoholic is it?
It’s only alcoholic if you make it that way : ) but you should really do your best to avoid that stuff. It’s pretty nasty unless you like brightly colored sugar water.
Oh, get the Kool-Aid when your here.
All sugar, and it will give you extra energy to wave those pom-poms.
Get to Ladbrokes FAST, I am sure they will give you great odds on that Theo scoring 15 goals dream!
He won’t get enough matches to score 15, unless we have a lot of injuries.
No pompoms for me nor do I bet ;).
So I’ll stick to KoolAiding on this site and bigging up Theo.
We did NOT play 4-3-3 at ANY time last season.
It was a point blank 4-5-1…or 4-4-1-1.
And yes, there IS a difference between 4-5-1 and 4-3-3.
Yes we did. We were just shit.
If your shit, it will look like a 4-5-1 because you spend the whole game getting pissed on and having to defend.
Here’s the man himself:
The Frenchman is the first to admit that his side had been caught on the back foot in the Champions League semi-final and therefore gifted United with their second consecutive opportunity to win the trophy, but he is sure Arsenal’s new look side will go a long way in testing the resolve of Ferguson’s squad.
“That 0-0 result [against United in May] showed this system was the way forward,” said Wenger. “We also played that system against United in the Champions League game but it didn’t work. What changed, I feel, in the Champions League was that we were on the back foot and in the championship we were more adventurous and more going forward.
“At the moment, it works well for us, we have another test to see that tomorrow afternoon. We were too passive in the Champions League – it was more a mental problem than tactical.”
Nowhere in that passage does it state we played a 4-3-3.
I maintain we were in a staid, rigid 4-5-1.
Arshavin was unhappy last season as a “winger” but is now happier this season as a forward.
I’d tend to agree. While the 4-5-1 can very quickly change to a 4-3-3 in attack it was definitely a much more defensive formation which we played last year. There was never so much pressing from the front at any point which is one of the big characteristics of the 4-3-3.
Really though its more a mindset than anything.. AW tells the widemen to be more attacking and defend from the front – it becomes a 4-3-3 .. he tells them to be more conservative — it becomes a 4-5-1 with RVP stuck out uselessly on the left wing.
The only reason that had to happen because Ade was in the team. Now that he is not there and we aren’t lumping balls forward pointlessly we can play the way we are which suits us much better.
LOL at the complete non-mention of “the most important play” of the match.
Vermaelen’s take down of Dunn in the box!
We played a splendid free-flowing game, but that could have changed the match and the 2nd half entirely.
It looked like a penalty to me… and I cringed when it happened.
So Vermaelen didn’t play so well at the back if he had 2 mishaps!
That’s football. Sometimes you get the breaks, sometimes you don’t.
So take them when you do, and be happy… and don’t bitch too much when it goes the other way.
There is no conspiracy.
Exactly. Arsenal fans, and football fans in general, always go on about referring decisions conspiring against us/them but yet when we get our NUMEROUS lucky calls, it’s quickly forgotten.
It the same the other way around. When we felt unjust of some of the referees’ decision AGAINST us, you guys said we were talking “excuses.”
Now we finally got a break, you guys said we quickly forgotton the incident.
So I am asking – if you think Rooney won a penalty that never was, and we complained about it, it’s EXCUSE.
Then STOP making EXCUSE for Blackburn.
What excuse are we making for Blackburn?
No one mentioned the penalty incident yesterday because it was clear we were the better side.
Last season, when we were clearly a poor side, it was embarrassing to read the amount of bitching at referees decisions when we lost a match, when it was clear we had far more immediate problems. ie. the quality of our team.
Personally I think it’s more embrassing when an Arsenal fan can’t just be happy and enjoy the win, instead keep nitpicking Arsenal this and that after even a 6-2 win.
No wonder Wenger’s head is being called.
He doesn’t stand a chance. Who does?
Well it’s hardly Wenger’s fault that the ref didn’t give a penalty so I struggle to see how he is being criticsed here.
Please I am enjoying this immensely.
Not exactly. We had TWICE came from a goal down. What made you think even if Blackburn scored form a penalty, we wouldn’t have SCORED again?
Andez, it was a CLEAR PENALTY!
If they got the call, and the penalty, I still think we would have won the match… we were flying.
But you can’t possibly sell that to Blackburn or their supporters!
It goes both ways… unfortunately, the Kool-Aid crew see it all Arsenal Red, and a few of us have to just point that out to keep things from being a freakin’ pom-pom waving love-fest.
;)
It was not the most important play of the day. Vermaelen’s goal was the most important play of the day. It showed a mentality that said I can make a mistake but I will redeem it. That goal gave the rest of the team confidence to take the risks.
Even if Blackburn had got the penalty, we would still have won, probably 8-3 or something. that renders it less important.
why not 14-3, why stop at 8?
If we could have scored 8, we would have, and if Blackburn got the penalty and tied it at 3-3, there is no guarantee we would have scored any more goals.
It was not the most important play, BECAUSE it was NOT CALLED.
I believe another player will shine under the 433 formation is Theo Walcott. With 442, he played like an out and out winger. His strength is his pace, his ability to get behind the defence. It’s difficult to do that when you are out wide. Now in a supporting attacker role, his pace and Cesc’s passing will offer us an extra weapon.
With 433, the two attacking midfielders are encouraged to shift flank, it would also benefit Theo. Both he and Bendtner have a far stronger right foot. When they are playing on the right, the angle for them to shoot is narrow. On the right, they can cut inside and shoot with their stronger right foot with a far wider angle for them to aim at.
To your point Andez:
http://footytweets.com/arsenal/news/160721
Seems Theo believes the same thing.
By the way talking of the interchangable work – anyone see RvP and Arshavin switch off from wing to center with each other?
Theo is our biggest unknown factor and Arsene has been patient to wait for
his play to pay dividends for the club.
With a supporting cast (besides Cesc) of Rosicky, Arshavin, Nasri, and RvP – we should see
a breakout season for Theo.
A game changer for Arsenal against Pool, ManU, and Chelski – plus in CL competition.
Am I drinking too much kool-aid?
I like Theo too, but he has trouble staying healthy, and he lacks consistency. I wouldn’t bet on a “breakout season”… so sip the kool-aid lightly!