On Being A Fan: Living and Dying with Arsenal
Fan (n): A fan, aficionado, or supporter is someone who has an intense, occasionally overwhelming liking and enthusiasm for a sporting club, . . . (courtesy Wikipedia)
So what does it mean to be a fan. Is it to express an interest in specific team or organization. Some would argue it is. Me – I would contend that being a fan, a true fan is a borderline manical fanaticism for a team so much so that engulfs most of your every day life.
While I am a fan of many sports teams they are not nearly as intense as my love for the Red and White of Arsenal. How I came to love Arsenal is not important – what matters is that it has been a part of me for a very long time and it only intensified when I launched this blog.
In light of our recent loss to Manchester United and the endless back and forth about what that loss means for the team and accusations of one person being more of a fan over another I thought it would be interesting to explore this thing called fandom.
Michael Mandelbaum, a prominent professor of foreign policy at Johns Hopkins is the author of The Meaning of Sports, a book that examines “what it means to be fan.” Or in other words why do reasonable, well-adjusted people — you know, like us — invest so much time and emotion and passion watching the sweaty and genetically gifted play games? That is the question we should answer.
First for my readers lets look at Arsenal fans as I would group them:
Kool Aid Drinkers: Doesn’t matter what happens – the team, the manager, the players, the overall organization can do no wrong.
Doom Mongers: The minute one minor thing goes wrong, injury to a key player, a loss to a rival, this fan will immediately cry all is lost and we should abandon all hope.
The Nay Sayers: Along the same lines of the Doomer Mongers but will rationally look at the team and tell you what needs to be fixed, players bought /sold or loaned out, manager fired, organizational changes, etc.
The eternal pragmatist: The fan who has the emotional connection that all the others do but sees the positive and the negative and sees the practical in both arguements and takes a side in neither court but makes a rational decision based on the evidence (and their heart) at hand.
I would classify myself as a blend of Kool Aid Drinker and eternal pragmatist. I am a Kool Aid drinker because my team can do no wrong in my eyes – even when they BLOW. But when I stop to look at the team and the situation as a whole, I understand the negative and positive complexities of the situation and look for what really is the best answer.
Now let me make this remark – it doesn’t matter what group you fall into here – no one is saying you are any less committed to the team than anyone else. Though I could argue Doom Mongers need to really check their team credentials.
Fans should be allowed to aruge that they are tired of being spoon fed the same old statements around the age of the team, they are tired of being priced out of their seeing their favourite team, and having “tourist” fans take their place.
As an Arsenal fan we also have the right to tell that other groups of fans to stuff it, that Arsene has plan and regardless of the duration winning a trophy we want him as a manager and we want him to keep our club from the perils of debt laden hell.
As a fan I get tired of being told I can feel one way or the other. Hell, I am tired of the pit that rests in my stomach after a loss. I get tired of looking at the same old tired arguements about the failings of our team and without any nods to the positives of the team.
Conversely the opposite number have a right to tell me to pound sand.
And see that’s whats great about being a fan – we all support our team and are equally as passionate. We all feel the pain of defeat (some of it for different reasons) some like me take days to recover from it. (I can’t look at the press, I don’t want to write and I don’t want to engage on Twitter – that’s how bad it gets). But in the end we all love Arsenal win or lose.
I discovered Arsenal in 1989. I was temporarily assigned duty in London for Commander In Chief US Naval Forces Europe and working across from my Brit counterpart he asked me if I was in the mood to go on a sojourn to go see Arsenal play. It would require requesting a personal day of leave in order to make the trip. I was able to get the day off (thank PO Guilliano). And on Friday 26 may 1989 I saw my first Arsenal match and the rest we shall say is history.
Since then I bleed red and white and more so than my Hockey team, my baseball team or my throwball team (I HATE BASKETBALL – except Villanova). I buy the FIFA series because I can be Arsenal. I read Arsenal articles incessantly. I argue with Stag and Fred and other Arsenal fans ad nauseum (though Fred and Stag get me too many times for my own liking). I go head to head with Chav fans on Twitter and I long for St Totteringham’s day. I will never again support Adebuywhore and watching Kolo Toure and Patrick Vierra in powder blue hurts in so many ways. Fandom is so many things to so many of us.
It doesn’t matter how we came to Arsenal the fact is we support them. We can all get guffed at each other but that’s what it means to be a fan. I dread reading some of the comments on here but in same vain I’ve really come to respect the opinions of all the supporters who comment here.
One final word: The Doom Mongers – more than any other group these guys piss me off – when Vermaelen was injured last week and it looked like he had a broken leg – you would’ve thought that Arsenal would never win another game again. All was lost and we should just give up. These aren’t the same creatures as Nay Sayers. Nay Sayers bring something to the table, they validate their point with evidentary and argumentive evidence – the Doom Monger is the fair weather fan that gives all supporters a bad name. Sorry I had to get that off my chest because that grip just irks me.
And no guys I don’t care how you came to Arsenal – this isn’t AA.
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Very good read.
http://www.oleole.com/blogs/arseblog/posts/all-i-desire–frustration
All we ask is that Arsene do his “best”.
http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/-top-three-finish-harder-than-winning-a-cup-?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+arsenal-news+%28News+Feed%29
Here we go again!
Sometime back, it was top four is better than winning a cup. Now it is top three. Can you guess why?
“It’s very important that we win something, we’re here to win trophies, but it depends on what you call trophies,” he explained.
“Is it the Champions League, the Premier League, the League Cup? If you win the League Cup you cannot say you win trophies for me.
——————
Those statements there say it all.
Sad.
brilliant stuff from Arsene, as usual…
Andez talked about a LACK OF RESPECT for the FA Cup… Wenger shows he has ZERO for the competition.
Ridiculous.
I suggest we don’t even enter it next season, why waste the time?
oh, right… because the suckers… er supporters FILL THE STADIUM for FA Cup matches.
How about if NOBODY showed up for the FA Cup match… think the board might tell Arsene to shut his mouth?
Looks like Nike knows a good Goal Keeper when it sees one – Nike has DROPPED Manuel Almunia from its roster of professional football sponsors.
he’s our No.1 keeper, Wenger knows, he’s our BEST keeper… and we probably could have gotten 5 keepers better than him in the EPL during the January window…
but its not negligence, its Arsene knows.
Funny stuff before Sunday’s clash.
http://unprofessionalfoul.com/2010/02/05/ufs-rivalries-series-arsenal-vs-chelsea/#m
Sorry for the long post below, but it’s been a long week waiting for the Chelsea match after the debacle vs United. In my defense, I have read and tried to understand all of discussion/opinions here, (brought about, no doubt, by our latest results AND letting the transfer window close with no action) about just how screwed up our team and our club is, how AW must go, etc., but I beg (pretty mildly, really) to differ….
I shouldn’t admit it, but I’m just a noob, having only followed the team since Fall of ’06 (when I was lucky enough to live in Highbury), so I must defer to those of you who’ve been around much longer AND I appreciate your perspective (and your frustrations). However….maybe my, er, fresher viewpoint is not to be entirely derided and dismissed…
To my mind, it all goes back to our opponent this weekend: Chelsea (and Abromovich) and how the other big clubs have reacted when they/it burst onto the scene and won their titles in the middle of the last decade.
First off, I think it makes total sense to say the club consciously decided to pursue youth development and a “continental” style when they decided to take on the Stadium project/debt. Real estate money (in trendy Islington) and plundering the very best of the world’s best French and Francophone players seemed a good (and tasteful) strategy vs courting “Sugar-Daddies.” A large modern stadium AND a focus on the CL over the league and domestic cups is a strategy for “building the Arsenal brand” worldwide. There is a reason that nearly every match of ours is on television and that people like us, around the world, are living and dying and blogging with our team. It sucks for the long-time, working-class supporters, now stuck watching home matches in pubs (i.e., “priced-out”), etc. But is has made Arsenal, despite the lack of silverware, a bigger club in world-wide stature.
Liverpool and United, buoyed with new owners and their money (or at least, lines of credit) somewhat followed our lead, ‘Pool using Benitez and his Spanish connections, United using Quiroz and his similar Portuguese ones. And their successes outstripped ours: Torres, Reina, Alonzo, and other Spaniards and Spanish speakers allowed ‘Pool to reach a CL final and mount a credible league campaign. United got C. Ronaldo (and Nani and Brazilian twins, etc.), and with their strong English base they pushed above Chelsea and won 3 titles and a European cup AND they were still able to sell on their star for a huge windfall, though they currently don’t seem willing or able to re-invest in new players.
We went with youngsters and Africans and lately a couple of more mature buys (Arshavin, Vermaelen) and giving contracts to keep our fledgling team together. We’re improving, I think, in spite of pretty extreme injury problems, but results wise it is clearly not enough to satisfy those who knew the team from before. IMO, this year’s team was by far the most promising since I’ve been watching. And it may be a sign of our league ambitions that we sold two Africans, (and have bought no others) during this ACN year. Fragile as we are, I feel we’re far more stable than the 07-08 team captained by Gallas and fully dependent on mercenaries like Ade, Hleb and Flamini.
All that being said…it IS galling that we moved on Ade and Toure for giant profits and only replaced with Vermaelen. It does seem ridiculous that we have young goalkeepers on long-term contracts but none who can slot in for (beyond) wobbly Almunia. To not have a midfield alternative for a player as underdeveloped, possibly hurt and certainly lacking confidence as Denilson seems unforgivable. And to have no central forward beyond unfit/unproven Bendtner and Walcott and broken Dudu/Vela/RVP….WTF?
It’s all a bit ridiculous and, given that we’re in the midst of a brutal run of fixtures where we’re clearly under-performing, it feels awful. Maybe we’ll turn it around on Sunday at Chelsea, but I’m not overly hopeful and then we’ve still got ‘Pool on Weds, and I fear we lack the “team maturity” to really focus well in consecutive matches….Even if the results fall our way, I will refuse to declare our troubles over with a single or couple of good results.
Still, IMO, the team/club is making progress and, at least in the longer term, we’re on the right track. I know this means nothing to those that have seen too much already, yearn for the successes of 5-8 years ago, and feel that a different approach (Sugar Daddy, staying at Highbury, sacking AW, spending all money on “mature” or “name” players, others?) might have been the way to go. (And BTW, I have learned a ton from reading all your posts here and on AA.) Unfortunately, we are where we are and we have to accept it. I hope you guys can stick with it and keep supporting the club. And if not, I understand, and there could be better teams out there for you who do things the way you feel they should be done (Chelsea, ManCity, Real Madrid, others?). ;-)
For me supporting Arsenal the short time I have has been an epic, life-changing experience and I’m gonna stick with it. No matter what happens this weekend I’ll keep watching, and I’ll keep hoping for the best. I hope we can pull off the results to stay in the title race, but even if we fail, I’ll be looking forward to those matches (to see who looks promising for the future, etc.), our CL run, next season and beyond.
Steve, your posts portray no trace of noob-ishness. If you hadn’t of mentioned 2006 I would’ve had you pegged for 2003 ;)
Well constructed write-up, HtS!
Steve… you are new!
LOL
You couldn’t imagine how much of a kool-aider I once was!
Have you ever watched the video from the INVINCIBLE season? If not, watch it. Find it.
See how amazing the team “was”… the ease with which we ran a deadly counter-attack… the beauty and grace with which we played, and the toughness when it was necessary… and you’ll see why I am so jaded that we are … where we currently are… with this team.
It is like night and day… only in a few years time.
Why can United keep players in their squad like Scholes and Giggs, who contribute on and off the pitch… an contribute to their sustained success? and we wouldn’t keep anyone over 30?
hey, you make a lot of sense for a newbie, and I don’t think anyone will “jump ship” and not support Arsenal… regardless of what happens with the team… but some of us, and many supporters have seen enough to know something has to change.
When I’m not looking forward all week to an Arsenal v Chelsea match, somethings f’d up.
Aha…So you are a youtube/highlight guy!
There’s a young Brazilian midfielder named Denilson…Have you ever seen his youtube video?…We should buy him immediately AND give him a huge contract….
Oh….Wait a minute…. ;-)
With greater seriousness…One element of our “disciplined” fiscal approach is that we can compete with the clubs that might offer “really big” money for a player like Cesc or Arshavin or anybody who starts becoming a real contributor. If we can keep some of these guys or some of our older guys can make the contribution we hope for (Gallas, Rosicky, Eduardo, RVP) we might have some of that Scholes and Giggs (and don’t forget Captain Phil Neville….) mojo that you’re talking about.
ManU’s got enough depth and solidity (players who will surely end their great or at least solid careers there) and enough “up and comers,” to see them through the deals they “had” to make (Ronaldo for 80M pounds).
In this regard it’s really too bad Gallas flamed out as Captain, though I still hope we extend his contract as he’s pretty damn solid. (And, IMO, it was good “man management” by AW to keep him on as he did and get Vermy + 6 million for Kolo.) Maybe a headed goal this weekend over John “Tiger” Terry…Could be something to look forward to….
Steve,
I believe this is what stagg is referring to. In any case, it’s a season deserves better than youtube.
http://www.soccerevolution.com/store/products/SLS_70501_X.php?aidt=10083
Vibe… that is it.
Thanks for linking it.
D’oh…of course it’s on a DVD….Who wants to burn me a copy? (I, like Arsene, hate to pay retail….)
Its a DVD…
Has the entire season on it, all the goals, all the matches & highlights, a few hours long, that brings tears to the eyes at times, because we were so damned good.
Every single match, you KNEW… we were NOT going to lose. Even when we lost to Chelsea in the CL… it was SHOCK. (by fans and players) There was belief that we were unbeatable.
As far as older guys making contributions, Wenger had (has except for Gallas) this idiotic policy of not signing players over 30 for more than a 1 year contract. Robert Pires should have NEVER left the club… for example.
I’d highly recommend the DVD, its actually called: THE UNTOUCHABLES 2003/2004
and
I might have recommended this previously to you (or someone else)… a MUST READ for newer football fans to sort of understand what it was like “back in the day”…
A book by Bill Buford, “Among the Thugs”… and American author infiltrating a hooligan crew… absolutely engrossing and outstanding.
Cheers (as they say, over there) for the recommendations and feel free to put a “Noob-tard Care Package” together for me, with a promise that I’ll return it AND that you’ve got a place to watch Arsenal if you’re ever in one of the great resort/vacation areas of the US (Lake Tahoe)….
Steve, you can get it for $14.99 on Amazon. It really is a keeper (unlike Almunia…zing!)
The shit keeps piling onto Terry. Can’t help by like the timing.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/world-cup-2010/teams/england/7165406/John-Terry-hit-by-Wembley-allegations-as-Fabio-Capello-ponders-England-captaincy.html
Be curious as to a perspective from Mazza or any of our English brethren. How is it playing over there? Is this kind of thing that’s big enough that even non-footy fans are talking about it? Is there ANY sympathy/defense of the ex-Captain, or is he on an island (you know, within an island)?
It’s very big, one of those cross-over stories. Almost Tiger Wood-ish.
The only defence of him that I can see is some ex-Chelsea radio presenter called Jason Cundy who, surprise surprise, works for Chelsea TV as well.
But yeah, most people are unanimous in finding him an utterly abhorrent ‘Chav’ and are taking quite a bit of delight in his plight, as he has got previous. There has certainly been no uproar over Capello taking away the captaincy.
As for timing, I’m unsure. I can half imagine the much fabled “Big Man” seeing it as a perfect match to show what a lion he is and doing one of those poncey arm-in- arm things with Lampard at the end.
Hopefully he takes down Arshavin for a penalty.
Didn’t the Hull fans mock him the entire match?
Yeah, but wasn’t anything major it seems.
The Tiger Woods analogy is very helpful, thanks.
I did think about the other side of the situation, timing-wise. I figure, might as well take the optimist’s view. If we get crushed Sunday, there will be plenty of time for pessimism. ;-)
http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/-we-were-very-very-close-to-new-signing-?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+arsenal-news+%28News+Feed%29
Arsene starts his trademark tease.
Remember the “we were close to signing Ronaldo, Drogba, Cech, etc. etc.” ?
In a sense, this is typical of Arsenal – always close but no cigar. The nearly men.
At least he didn’t say “… judge us at the of Jan (insert year) …” – words to that effect :)
I guess we’re destined to be bridesmaid.
We can’t resign ourselves like that.
Just 5 years ago, we were destined to be a dynasty.
It is all in “you know whose” hands.
Soccerfreak, so we adapt our whole style, formation, power, player size to improve our chances in Europe. I can see the argument, a slower possession game is more suited to European competition. It’s true there was always a sense that the great Mk I and II sides underachieved in Europe yet, such a massive move away from what made us successful in our domestic league seems an enormous risk. Non? Has it paid off?
People (me included) focus on things like reliance on younger players and injuries (crocks) as the key reasons for our demise yet ….. the style that has evolved after the break-up of Mk II has never been convincing to me. Sure, as you say the core of Ade, Fab, Flam, Hleb gave us a lift yet it was fragile. Indeed, I can’t expound exactly it is we are trying to do. I’ve described our 1st team squad as an assortment of ill-fitting parts – going to 4-3-3 has helped utilise those parts yet when you look back over the last 5 years is it clear what Wenger is trying to construct? How did Adebayor fit in to the equation? What about Walcott? Bendtner? Eduardo? If we accept that Fabregas is the jewell – where did Wenger see him being played?
I just get the sense we’ve kinda morphed from Mk II through a continuing journey of discovery that didn’t and still doesn’t (despite our improved position) have much apparent shape. To be frank the slow metronomic passing game that allows the opposition time to assemble defensively just seems destined to be a blunt instrument – is looking for the intricate 1-2 passing moves across the box all we have to offer?
What does the new Mk III team look like? Does anyone know?
Adebayor and Flamini weren’t supposed to be a part of the so-called Mark II. At best they were supposed to be squad players but they both got an opprotunity and took it.
I used to say that Wenger just stumbled onto that formation in the pre-season with Hleb in the hole behind the striker as an AM and it worked fairly well. I think Wenger wanted Fab there but Hleb was so convincing and Fab had more time and space with Hleb and his dribbles. Likewise, Flamini added a lot of energy to the side.
In our Invincibles season… we should have won the CL.
Who did we lose to?
CHELSEA.
Last I checked, they are in the EPL.
So, its not correct to say we couldn’t have won the CL with that style of play.
An English team usually knocks us out of the CL…
And Wenger ignoring or not being able to apply a “Plan B” style or “Plan B player options”… is a key as well.
One track mind.
It was not the style, when English teams beat us in Europe. Same teams we play in the league.
Stag, I never said I didn’t want Bendtner to play on Sunday. I said it’s dangerous to START him if he’s not fully fit. He’s sat on his ass for three months not even able to train. I’m not at Arsenal training ground so I can’t assess his fitness but based on his performance from the bench against Man Utd, I’d say he’s a bit short.
If he’s not fit enough to run hard for ninety minutes against Chelsea then no, he shouldn’t start. We have 42 points to play for as well as a Champions League and we’ll need a fit center forward to give us our best chance at success. I’d rather lose at Chelsea and have Bendtner fit for the rest of the season than earn three points and lose Bendtner. We’ve got a bunch of winnable games in our run-in; if we have a striker. If Bendtner’s not fully fit, I say wrap him in wool until he is. I believe he’ll be fit very soon. I also believe Chelsea will continue to drop points. There is life beyond this Chelsea game.
Disagree.
I’d sacrifice Bendtner for a month if we win at Chelsea.
You really believe if we go 9 points behind Chelsea, we can still win the league? No chance.
Do you rememeber a match in which Cesc came on, even though not fully recovered, won us the game, and re-tweaked his injury.
Well worth it.
If we are so desperate for a striker who’s fit, we should have bought one.
Agreed, we should have bought a striker. Last month I said a striker was more crucial than even a new goalkeeper because we don’t have one that’s fit.
I wouldn’t say that we have no chance to win the league if we lose on Sunday. After the last time we played Chelsea, we were eleven points back. However, 9 games later, we were top of the table. Such has been the BPL this season.
Sure, Fabregas came off the bench and made a miracle. That’s my point exactly; he came off the bench because he wasn’t fully fit. It’s also relevant that he missed games when we didn’t need him too much. We’ll need a fully fit Bendtner in the next month.
made up 11 points because we had games in hand…
it was not 11 points back with the same number of matches played.
big difference.
there was a reason for the change.. and that was the inaptitude of that rat-a-tat-tat team to play fearlessly in Europe.. and that was happening season after season..
we used to shiver at thoughts of playing at mestalla and turin and the like..
and with the new formation we always look so much more comfortable and composed..
also, to cement wenger’s belief, the first season he tried the slower game, by compromising vieira for fabregas, we were as he envisioned awesome, in Europe.
until ManU thrashed and spanked us last season, we were doing pretty well..
So, its a trade-off.
And the success two years ago in EPL gave hope, that success in both competitions can be achieved together.
I think all would have been well even now, if Almunia hadn’t become so piss poor over 2 seasons, and if taylor would have tackled denilson instead of eduardo.
well, if Wenger had the forsight to see that you can have a PLAN B, you know, a different style or option, we could have BOTH… the style that won in the league, and a chance in the CL.
But without a SOLID defense and keeper, you aren’t winning anything… it goes right up the middle of the field.
I’ve asked YAMAs a number of times why did Arsene change????
What happened to his head – it was around the time The Invincibles (ala Mk II) was just declining and we were heading to the Emirates.
Why did we go from fast, clever, intense, razor sharp, rat-a-tat-tat, 1-2-3 goals in 20 min’s – to midgets and the metronome?????
No one answers …… it’s like this elephant in the room that NO ONE ever talks about yet it’s stared us in the face, waved its trunk and stank out the room for 5+ years.
I guess no one knows? Even an astute guy like GG wants to ask The Professor. Five years and no one knows – kinda says something.
Arsenal changed player transfer policy at the same time we announced moving to the Emirates. Is that a coincidence? I don’t think so. I think the move has put the club under tremendous financial strain.
Perhaps Wenger sold the idea of Arsenal changing it’s transfer policy as the way to get the board to bless off on the Emirates move. If we’re not spending as much on player transfers then we avoid going into serious financial trouble like Liverpool and Manchester United have. (The worst is very soon to come for them.)
If spending were the case then how can we justify the player wages? The only thing I’ve got is wages are an effort to keep the team together. Everyone can’t afford an Arsenal player’s wages. Likewise, is a player going to leave Arsenal for a team that can’t match Arsenal’s wages? People are sitting on Chelsea’s bench making more than they could mank elsewhere so it’s a concept that works.
This is all speculative as I’m not a member of the Arsenal board and am not privy to the discussions they have behind closed doors. But I’m certainly not buying that Arsene has suddenly become a stupid man.
“People are sitting on Chelsea’s bench making more than they could mank elsewhere so it’s a concept that works.”
Really? I could have sworn I read on here that one of the reasons Arsenal lacked depth is because it’s so hard to find good players you can pay enough to just sit on the bench.
You also read where I labeled Chelsea the exception.
Indeed you did. You also read where I labeled Chelsea the exception.
I don’t think anyone believes he’s stupid.
Arrogant and stubborn to the point of … insanity?
maybe.
Time for the real oil from the real daddy George Graham…..asking the number one question all gooners should ask Wenger – WHY DID YOU CHANGE SOMETHING THAT WORKED?????????
“Arsene is a great believer in total football and I think he is a great admirer of Barcelona.
“I’m in Spain quite a lot, so I see Barcelona and Real Madrid play.
“Whether Arsenal can do a Barcelona in English football… there’s a big question mark over that.
“I think Arsene Wenger loves the way Barca play and I think he wants Arsenal to evolve in that way.
“Arsene was the manager who developed that pacy and athletic game in England and I don’t know why he has changed it.
“It’s a question I would like to ask him myself. When you have succeeded in a certain way at the top level, why change it?
“He had great success with the technique, athleticism, intensity and aggression.
“Wenger has been quoted as saying he thinks the aggression is there this season – but it’s not at the level as the teams of the past. When Wenger had his early success at Arsenal, he had that famous back-four and in front of them he had Patrick Viera and Emmanuel Petit. That’s a very strong basis for a team.
“Can you play total football in England and win the league? I don’t know.
“But it looks as if Arsene is going to go down that route of trying to play like Barcelona.”
On Fabregas leaving he said: “It’s all down to the individual, and certain individuals are ambitious.
“There are certain players at clubs who are the big figurehead, but they haven’t won anything.
“You look at them and you say, ‘Okay, you’ve got plenty of money, but you haven’t won a trophy’.
“Deep down I think they will regret it. There have been some great player who have been with clubs all their careers and have never won a trophy or the Premier League.
“If you talk about Fabregas, if he goes to Barcelona, he will win trophies there.
“You’re virtually guaranteed to win trophies at Barcelona, and that’s what the boy has got to think about.
“Does Arsene need a trophy because it’s been four years now? That’s the big question.
“He will say, ‘My priority isn’t trophies. My priority is the way we play’.
“That’s his target – the way they play, not what they win. I was the opposite. I said, ‘I’ll give you trophies. We’ll take some criticism, but we’ll win trophies’.
“When you go into management, whether you like it or not, you’ve got to win if you’re going to last long. The first priority is to win matches, which hopefully leads to trophies.
“The second priority is to play attacking football which is good to watch. Arsenal have done the second thing but not the first for the last four years.”
Like I said the real oil. His Arsenal career may have ended in disappointing circumstances, yet he was Arsenal through and through. And know this, the success Wenger enjoyed would NEVER have happened without GG re-establishing the club as a major force and providing the defensive base that underpinned our first trophies under Wenger. It was GG who challenged the great Liverpool era and then the ManU era.
Amen.
And Wenger has abandoned that defensive spine that allowed him to win his silverware at Arsenal… as GG said.
WTF?
Why would you change what worked. We were amazing to watch, and won titles.
Cue up the Wenger-can-do-no-wrong crowd for GG bashing.
How dare he state such things.
Arsesession, your right, there has been a glimmer this season with Vermaelen etc.
However my problem with Arsene is that he always leaves it too long to sort out a problem, and by the time he belatedly does it, another one has reared its ugly head. A possible Denilson sell this summer will help, but what’s that, is that Willy G losing a step, in Arsene’s eyes, when he sets up camp in Austria?
A few years ago I also said he will try and very slowly disband his youth failures so people don’t notice the pattern and link it in one those damning articles he hates so much (he admits to reading the press). Senderos has recently been sent packing and if Arsene swallows his pride, expect Clichy, Denilson, Walcott, to bite the dust in staggered intervals to throw people off the trace. As Fred pointed out, our team is getting older as it improves. There was no difference between average age of us and United on Sunday. And yet we have a ‘young team’.
That’s if he stays of course and admits to himself that victory won’t come with the ground-breaking methods he feels so passionately about . Any success might feel hollow after such concessions and I think he very well might call it quits before it gets to that stage.
Slight problem with that theory Mazza.
No one will be able tp pay the type of salaries these underachievers are making and with guaranteed contracts they can sit on their fat, rich, corpulent asses without fear.
For once, we have just about all of our players signed to long term contracts, yet ironically, quite a few are underachievers.
You could be right there CK.
Shit, he’s got it all worked out hasn’t he? :)
You know the worst part.
I read somewhere that Carrick is on about 50k per week, while Fletcher was on 35k and recently got bumped to 45k!!
WOOW!
Meanwhile Denilson is sitting on a 60kpw!
Tells you ALL you need to know about both Ferguson and Wenger.
Fergie pays huge transfer fees and less wages.
Arsene does the opposite. It keeps the players happy and the overall bill down.
Paying more wages doesnt keep the bill down.
Actually wages account for the vast majority of a clubs expense!!!
Fletcher and Carrick cost less than Walcott, Denilson and Wellington combined.
Walcott and Denilson are on 60k each … higher than the Man U duo.
On the other hand Fletcher and Carrick have been REGULARS in a team that has won THREE league titles in a row. They have also won the CL and appeared in another final. While ours are complete wastes of money and time.
Meanwhile Fabregas, Arshavin are all very close to Denilson, Almunia, etc in wages, …. you know ….. cos we gotta keep folks like Denilson, Almunia, etc, happy!!! :D
60kpw?!? Don’t think Denilson is quite that energentic…
“Personally, I think the best solution might just be to promote Steve Bould! Or my personal favorite … Bergkamp!”
_____________________________________
Well Fred, with Bould you never know, he might do a Pep!
Maybe Bould as manager and Bergkamp as assistant. They are both deeply Arsenal, Bould one would think as a CB under GG still retains that hard-nosed pragmatism that winners need. Bergkamp with his Ajax roots loves the beautiful passing game that he himself was central to creating at Arsenal under our recent glory days.
Funny thing though is how even the Worshipers club both here and all over the internet ALL agree on THREE points.
That Almunia, Denilson and Clichy are indefensible. I still havent seen any post in defense of these three.
————————
Almunia meanwhile is giving interviews, trying to “boost morale”, claiming we can still the league…..completely oblivious to the fact he is the SINGLE greatest threat to that happening.
If we had a solid goalkeeper, we could all still be quite hopeful. Denmark and Greece have won major tournaments with far weaker teams than ours, but one thing they had — solid goalkeeper on form.
Our CBs cant even look him in the eye, yet the idiot is speaking to the press. Thats the kind of ship Wenger runs.
If he starts against Chelsea even the Worshipers wont be able to defend that.
I do find the morale boosts by Almunia and Denilson deeply ironic. ;-)
What’s the old saying?
“All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third it is accepted as being self-evident.”
Maybe violently opposed is a bit strong, but you get the picture.
Denilson and a few others, are at that self-evident stage. Maybe Arsene too.
Without being a big-headed twat, I called out Wenger’s stubborn self-destructive streak out a long, long, time ago. Back then it was kind of opinion/theory as Vibe pointed out, but it was opinion gleaned from interviews and overall demeanour.
I see the name Laurent Blanc being put forward by fans as a potential Arsenal manager.
Confession time! I didn’t even know he was in management ;-)
But he is, at Bordeaux, who are the french champions and currently running 1st. No small thing to make Bordeaux champions, to topple Lyon and gazump the traditional money-bags like PSG. So the guy has started off on the right foot and that certainly helps in the managerial game.
Some suggest he’ll be lined up by ManU yet that’s a bit presumptive. Just because he spent a little bit of the fag end of his career at ManU does that make him the nailed on successor? So Silvestre will automatically manager Arsenal then?
What it affirms to me is that when you set aside the fear of the unknown, there are many potential candidates for our managers chair. Indeed, GG and Arsene have done such a good job that we must now be perceived as one of the plum posts in world football. So this scare mongering by the faint hearted is a little jaundised.
We could take one of two routes, bring in a ‘pro’ like a Hiddink to shape up the squad get results and kick start us winning again. Or go the ‘Wenger’ route and look for a long-term candidate who will cast an extension of the current vision.
The unknown to me is who on the board/exec has the vision themselves to do what David Dein did and identify the way forward. It’s not PHW, is it Kroneke? Gazidis? I simply don’t know. But there are a host of options and arguing to the contrary seems a little desparate.
I would say NO to established guys like Lippi, Hiddink, etc.
Their system is way too “pragmatic” or cynical for me. I am … and I bet most fans, even the doom and gloom crowd are still football purists in many ways.
We need a coach who:
1) stays true to pure attack based, ground play.
2) corrects player mistakes.
3) isnt a stingy, self-serving twat when it comes to transfers.
The big-name coaches wont stay true to number 1.
Personally, I think the best solution might just be to promote Steve Bould! Or my personal favorite … Bergkamp!
First lets see what Wenger can make of this season.
Only problem with Bergkamp is he doesn’t fly. I think, like you say, we should just wait till the end of the season. Who knows?
Whatever happens, I am going to enjoy the rest of the season. We have problems, no doubt, but the only thing you can be sure of with this Arsenal side is with the potential we have (to play excellent, and at the same time be pathetic), we are going to have a roller coaster ride. I’m just going to embrace it and enjoy the ride.
Just for the record, note that RvP and Eduardo are both out for these big games against the likes of the Manc’s and Chelsea. Once again, when you need them they’re on the treatment table.
I share your frustration Stag, as most do, and I don’t have the answers or a crystal ball. But to do my best to answer – if Fabregas did go I think it would be a massive moment for Arsene. He is next in the line after Henry & Vieira a world class superstar. If he left Arsene would be devastated. I don’t know what Arsene would do – it might be a watershed moment – a blow to his current state of thinking which perhaps might bring back a sense of pragmatism? But that’s speculation and I’m not sure he’s capable of moving away from his romantic ideals that are so obviously tied in to his current motivation.
What I feel confident about saying is that for many fans losing Fabregas would move them firmly into the camp of the doubters – those who have lost confidence in Wenger.
Will Fabregas go this summer? I doubt it. Wenger has a huge hold on him – he’s made him, made him captain, formed a team around him.
If Cesc left, it would literally be the blind leading the blind.
On the discussion above between Vibe, AS and Fred.
I guess you either have confidence in Arsene as manager or not. It’s that simple. No one will see things exactly the same – we’ll like different players, see potential differently – yet you’ll either have confidence that Wenger is still the right man or not. How you sit on that issue will then shape everything you see.
Over the last 5 years my confidence has abated. I see merits in aspects of what is happening but as a package I think the chances of success are low. I disagree with that. I also can’t see Wenger changing – I think he’s lost his pragmatic edge that was apparent in 1996-2004.
Can we still win the title this year – yes. Are we well positioned for the final third – no. Could we have been better positioned – yes. Is that frustrating – yes. Is that sense of frustration commonplace – yes. Will we address obvious issues in the summer – a little. Why – because Wenger believes in small changes and internal solutions. So will our chances improve – a little.
It’s this approach of limited changes to the team and preferring internal solutions that is at the heart of Wenger’s approach. This is why he says repeatedly as we near the end of a season that his greatest challenge is to keep the team together. He knows that if players leave it puts him even further back (ala Hleb, Flamini, Adebayor) because he is committed to limited changes and looking internally.
What would you say if Cesc was sold in the Summer?
What would the response be by the kool-aiders?
Arsene knows?
Nobody is bigger than the team? (except Arsene Wenger?)
The team will go on without Cesc, as it did before him?
Wenger will uncover another gem, just like he did with Cesc?
What has to happen?
Missing the top 4?
or getting relegated?
Kiwi you’re right, for Arsene roster stability is important.
Are we well positioned for the final third? I guess we won’t know until the season plays out. We all can speculate.
Well, I see it a little differently ;-)
When you feel pressed to play Arshavin at CF it indicates a wee problem. Non?
Our points total means we have a chance, yet our squad stills looks short of options at this key time. You can talk up returnees, yet in your realistic moments how much are they likely to contribute?
Returnees – none are likely to make an immediate impact; so my expectation is low.
With Eduardo out, Bendtner is likely to start as the target player. I believe he’ll do fine: settling balls and maintaining possession – anything else, will be a bonus (for the first few matches).
However, his presence will force opponent to see him as more of an offensive threat than a smaller Arshavin or Eduardo. This alone should create more space for
Cesc, Rosicky, and Arshavin.
in other news, Chelsea will NOT
be charged with any improper conduct, and
will NOT have a transfer ban at all…
but they just bought their titles, so they don’t
really count… we do it the “right way”!
LOL
This is PERFECT
and TRUE.
;)
Arsene’s fault, along with our injury-prone smurfs.
It is Arsene’s fault, and we do have a team
of injury prone smurfs.
GREAT DESCRIPTION.
No sense in playing on Sunday – impossible for us to win away against the mighty invincible, greatest, most fantastic, super wonderful, and glorious Chelsea.
Lose 1-3 to manu; season is over!
Arsene’s fault, along with our injury-prone smurfs.
No January signings. What is wrong with our management? Can’t they see we need a big-ass striker? $15-$20m is reasonable amount for a player we know will make an immediate impact. and a LB, CB, DM, & GK
Get rid of Eduardo, too slow, never regained his past form; ditto on Rosicky;
Why are we holding onto RvP? every season its something else.
Why are we keeping Theo around. Hell, he’s still high school age and not made his mark.
Song & Diaby – useless and worthless, not Arsenal quality;
WE REALLY NEED MELO! HE’S A PERFECT FIT FOR ARSENAL.
TEVEZ IS AN AVERAGE PLAYER. (sorry had to throw this in)
Emirates pitch is too big.
Eboue, WTF.
Get rid of Gallas, Clichy, Nasri ——————
& of course all of our goalkeepers & Pat Rice.
who have I left off?
PRICELESS.
The hilarious rant of a Wenger Worshipper! ;-)
Almost ALL your points are comically off-point … but the most laughter-inducing is your implying that Theo is “high-school” age.
Typical Worshiper strategy: obfuscate the facts to help your case.
Why dont you just write a proper 10 point list like Andez, so we can all make fun of it properly. This attempt is all over the place.
That would be ‘copy and paste’ a proper 10 point list. I think Andez’ recent silence says enough by itself.
Oh, arsesession you forgot (I’m sure) to include:
“Already lost 0-3 to Chelsea. Also at home.”
As far as Theo being of high school age at nearly 21. Given his lack of football intelligence, it’s entirely possible he’s been held back. Repeatedly. So that one could be true, technically.
This goes to the point it’s not our labels that limit discussion. Dancing away from the facts limits the discussion. Labels follow from that (and are for entertainment purposes only).
Fred ( & Vibe)
Yes, I fudged on Theo’s age.
Gee, you caught me, I admit I omitted some of the other embarrassing scores.
Stoke City, Sunderland, Man City, Burnley, 1st ManU match, & lets not forget
Burnley beating ManU, Chelsea drawing to Hull, etc.
Points are comically off-point? These aren’t my comments to defend.
So you don’t approve of many of Arsene’s player selections and his managing ability.
Arsenal are
1) out of CC competition
2) eliminated from FA Cup
3) 30 odd points from the bottom of the table
4) its early February, many of our key players now available;
5) RvP might return early – end of March. Djourou a month away.
My crystal ball had a recall; share with me how we did in the league cup or CL competition?
Your entitled to believe that this team has no chance with the current roster AND that
the manager has lost the plot.
BUT,
I’m not buying your snake oil.
Results are not ‘snake oil’.
Burnley beat ManU, and ManU is still better than us, in every measurable way. (Unless you chant Up the profits!)
Chelsea drew Hull, and Chelsea are still better than us, in every measurable way.
So those results were best left out, as they have zero relevance to this discussion about Arsenal.
Arsenal 0 Chelsea 3, on Arsenal’s ground, is 100% relevant.
As is the fact that both Chelsea and United have been winning silver, and Arsenal have not.
All I have just typed are points beyond dispute, not snake oil.
You know who ‘fudges’ facts? Snake oil salesmen.
Last I looked the season is not over – that was my point! In fact, every time we draw or lose, the Doom and Gloomer’s just begin the whining all over.
Sighting specific scores proves nothing except a snapshot for the moment.
ManU won the title last year, yet had losing records (in league play) with Pool, Chelsea, and ourselves. So how does that fit the relevance of your rationale?
Your entitled to your view of the world and commentary for Arsenal. Do I agree with everything Arsene does? No. Would I do things differently, yes. That said, I’m only a fan and understand the limitations associated with the term.
So Vibe, this is the only fact:
Most of us find comfort discussing anything that we find interesting, whether we claim to have knowledge on the issue or not.
To your last point, true enough.
Also true that the season isn’t over. But there’s a worrying trend that some of us have been calling out for a few years now.
Three years ago, it could be fairly said we were arguing opinion and theory. Seeing it seeming to all play out once again, it does all seem rather forgone.
This time last season (give or take), it would have also been correct to say ‘The season isn’t over yet.” Also true the year before. But at the end, we keeping ending up in the same place.
So, yeah, you can see the gathering clouds and hear the coming thunder and once more say “But it’s not raining yet.”
I’m still carrying my umbrella, here.
Hope the clouds break.
100% agree about the worrying trend.
Last season for me was a disaster, except for:
a) the addition of Arshavin &
b) the emergence of Song
This season I see that small light at the end of the tunnel with addition of Vermaelen; some improved play from Diaby; Eduardo and Rosicky are available; surprising & erratic play from our other high schooler, Ramsey; ecstatic with the distribution of goals scored within the club.
Do I want to see another GK? soon is not fast enough.
Could we please find a back up for Song, other than Denilson? ditto
The fact that we are only 6 points off the lead is amazing, because for me we have not played to our potential YET. That fact alone gives me so much hope that we can achieve something this year, OR come very close.
Fair enough, as.
For me, I take my greatest (only?) hope from the fact that the teams in front of us, other than when they play us, aren’t much more impressive. So if we can somehow squeeze points from Chelsea this weekend…yeah, well…the debate can continue. Which would be preferrable.
Summed up perfectly Vibe.
so what we should do, is no matter what the outcome, we praise Arsenal and Arsene… and nobody should say anything derogatory against either…
let them do whatever they want with no recourse or rebuke?
yeah, that sounds right.
….as for the profits being the most important thing. If the truth was this simple (which I doubt) then this could drag on for several more years.
But just watch and see the reaction once the supporters really turn on Wenger and the board.
I doubt Wenger or the board is too worried about the fans displeasure.
The ONLY thing that will wake them up, is empty seats at the massive stadium.
Merchandise and concessions not being sold… that would affect PROFIT.
As to whether profit is most important, what would make you say it isn’t, based on the past 5 seasons, and the constant practice of selling star players for big profit, and NOT re-investing it back into the team?
It will go on … until the fans WAKE UP, and ACT on it…
A half empty stadium late in the season, when we’re 15 points out of first, might say something.
Lambasting them at the year end meeting would be refreshing. I’d love to be there for it.
“he will say, resignation? for what?
why would I resign? what do you supporters know about football?”
___________________________________
Stag, despite the arrogant come backs, I think Arsene and PHW were shocked by the displeasure and criticism directed at Arsene and the board. They batted it away and treated the supporters like misbehaving children. I think that in itself was a strategic error, the supporters remember and will be even less tolerant when the team fails to deliver again. You can see that even now.
So Arsene is going to get it again (assuming he can’t pull the rabbit out of the hat). If he didn’t like it the first time, what is he going to do the next? With every passing season the issues become more indefensible – you’ll note there is no “judge us at the end of the season talk” now. He’s used that line too often.
So…..if success doesn’t arrive it can only go one of two ways. Either the board sack him or he walks. Now of course, you could believe that this will just keep repeating but I think that unlikely. It will come to a head. If it’s not supporter voices on the terraces and in the blogs it will be the struggle to fill the stadium. And then the question is what would Wenger do? He has a lot of pride and standing now – he’d probably rather have a dignified exit than get sacked.
Love this –
A Facebook group dedicated only to Emmanuel Eboue:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=47648191368&ref=ts&v=info
If this season goes the way of the last 5 I wonder if Arsene will offer his resignation?
he will say, resignation? for what?
why would I resign? what do you supporters know about football?
he’ll have to be carried out of the club screaming, he believes (like some on the site), that he is infallible…
this arrogance, is a big part of the problem, and the fact that he makes HUGE profit for the club, and that’s what is most important at Arsenal Football Club right now… not winning.
This buy young/youth policy has little historical evidence to suggest it will be a success. Indeed much of the reference to Arsene being a gem-finder looks overhyped.
By our joint efforts (thanks Nip and JD) we have a princely list of 4 or maybe 5 gems over 14 years. Vieira, Anelka, Fabregas, Clichy and Song. The latter 2 may drop off the list – only time will tell.
My cutoff was age 21, so the players had to be spotted and signed by Wenger and then go on to be valued first teamers – which seems a reasonable standard. Why 21? I think there is a big difference between signing players below that age and above that age. The ‘risk’ and uncertainty just seems so much greater the younger the player. And it’s not hard to reason is it? The younger the player the more chance physical limitations, injury, attitude, mental strenght, or whatever will crop up to stop the player becoming what you hope.
Note I’m not saying they have to turn out superstars (although 3 of them are) – only valued first teamers.
The really sobering aspect of this is that there are so few players who actually make the grade over 14 years. Only 5! And yet we seem to be basing our squad replenishment approach on this.
The other thing that becomes clear is that whilst the ocassional player breaks through as a teenager, most don’t until they are 23-24. Even under Arsene’s system they still can’t provide the on-field return we need until they reach age 23-24. Djourou(23), Bendtner(22), Denilson(22) Walcott(21) are still not ready to provide the answers we need now – they’re average at best. Yet they’ve all been at Arsenal for a long time between 3 and a half and 5 and a half years.
Now you can’t be overly prescriptive, but the general principles seem to stand up well. Interestingly Song at 22 after 4 years grooming has started to look a lot better and deserving of a place. Diaby at 24 shows signs of improvement.
It all points to me to being a very long-run strategy that will only work if it is wisely supplemented with high-quality mature players who are fit enough to bear a big load whilst the young players gain experience. And this is where it seems to come unstuck. The youth thing may well prove to be a fiscally clever approach, and we may even get a conveyor belt of competent talent coming through thereby reducing our need to sign as many ‘older’ players. The strategy may even continue to throw up the ocassional real gem – ala Fabregas. Yet it all will come to nothing if the first team hasn’t got a strong mature core.
Along with this sobering fact that Wenger’s youth gem-finding is a bit of a mirage is ANOTHER.
The average age of Man U on Sunday was no different from that of Arsenal.
Blowing up our regular description of our team as “young”.
That’s true too.
Funny how teams seem to reflect their managers character to a degree.
Fergie is a tough ole b*gger and his teams always seem to personify that in their culture. Initially Arsenal under Wenger had a level of that thanks largely to GG’s legacy yet increasingly our culture became more the urbane footballing snobs with a very French/international feel. This has intensified now with a team full of young players who have indivdually and collectively achieved zippo.
Pretty enjoyable FA Cup replay happening with Leeds equalizing on our Spurs just before the half-time whistle….
…and yet almost every manager gets fired.
Pep’s certainly hit the management circuit running.
I used to hope Arsene would move ‘upstairs’….now I’m not so sure how viable that is. He seems so influential and disinclined to deviate from his own views. That would place anyone working as ‘manager’ in a really difficult position. In any event – could Arsene voluntarily relinguish the commanding authority he now enjoys? Probably not until his energy has gone
If Wenger fails, he shouldnt move up. He should be fired point blank.
You know and I know that the board will never fire Arsenal’s most successful manager.
If the same were happening to Fergie they would never fire him.
Managers like that no matter how much they lose the plot have much more support than you can think – and not just from a large group of fans.
Oh by the way the big news of the day are related items:
1. investment managers say Manchester United’s bond issue is failing miserably
2. Liverpool’s american owners have been told to raise £100 m by summer to pay creditors or be forced to sell the club.
1. Manchester United just crushed us 3-1 IN OUR STADIUM!!!!!!!!!!
AND
They got Chris Smalling, an up and coming defender (which we NEED!!!) and a LIFE LONG GOONER, because we were TOO CHEAP to match their offer.
2. Liverpool, I bet, are gonna BEAT THE CRAP OUT OF US next week, because they’ve got Maxi Rodriguez and Alberto Aquilani who will COMPLETELY OUTPLAY Denilson and Diaby our “homegrown” (i.e. cheap) midfielders.
3. But we have fewer debts and are WINNING THE PROFIT LEAGUE!!!!!!! AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!
(Just saving Stag the trouble of having to respond to your “news” of the day….)
It looks like there is some action going on to make up for the loss of Smalling:
SK Borca central defender Stefan Savic (all 6’2″ and 19 yrs of him)is having a run in a behind the doors friendly with Dagenham and Redbridge under the eyes of AW. If he is sold on the lad,. He was the Montenegrin Player of the Year last year and if he does secure a pre-contract deal with Arsenal he is expected to slot right away into the first team.
2. We will not lose to Liverpool – we may draw but we will not lose.
Well said HighburySteve!
;)
of course we’d love to get Savic for free! and he’s the Montenegrin Player of the Year?!
WOW. They’re a powerhouse that Montenegro! LOL
I could see us losing to Liverpool, but a draw would be equally devestating, after a loss to Chelsea.
But even if we lose BOTH, we WILL still be in the hunt for the league, we have an easy run-in… and we’ll get players back in April… so we should be just fine.
Here is what I think is going to happen to AW –
Let’s say we win eff all this year. And let’s say for circumstances nothing happens next year (I hear the Doom mongers cheering now). Arsene’s contract is up 2011 as is Pep Guardiola’s.
I see a situation where Arsene is asked to go to management or retire. But he wouldn’t be given a new contract. Arsenal makes a bold move for Guardiola.
why would anyone leave Barcelona, to come to Arsenal?
It’s like leaving the Lakers to manage the Utah Jazz.
Don’t see it happening.
If Arsenal win nothing, and it looks that way now, the supporters will be all over him in the AISA meeting at seasons end.
That alone will ruffle his feathers… and make him want to leave. But the focus on Cesc will be INCREDIBLE in the Summer. We’ll take the 50 million, and put it right into the boards pockets.
When we were at Highbury, whenever a big player left, Wenger would buy another player to replace him. Anelka left, Henry came. Overmars and Petit left, Pires and Wiltord came in. Adams retired, Sol came in. It was a simple technique that saw us win a lot of trophies, but those players weren’t cheap and we still haven’t seen triumph in Europe.
Wenger’s vision has always been to see Arsenal be one of the biggest clubs in Europe and that is why we moved to the Emirates. This move also meant we had to change our spending habits with bringing in transfers. I believe Wenger pitched the idea to the board of using the talented academy players instead of buying high-price players to sustain Arsenal until the club’s financial debt settled down. He probably got tired of seeing his academy graduates leave Arsenal and prove they could play in the Premier league elsewhere. While it was certainly a fabulous plan, it’s got to first bear fruit to prove a good plan. The fact that the club continues to get CL football, play attractive football and make a lot of money while not spending, makes Wenger look like a genius. His approach makes the club too much money for him to be sacked.
With boos raining down at the close of the United match and “Sack Wenger” petitions circulating on the internet, it would seem that these next couple of matches and the CL run are awfully important…..
1. How was replacing those players not cheap???
Adams retired, Sol came in for free.
We got more from Overmars, Petit and Anelka than we paid for Henry, Wiltord and Pires.
We got more from Toure than we paid for Vermaelen.
Any striker we could have gotten would be cheaper than the 25 million we got for Adebayor.
So the idea that replacing departed players is expensive is not really true is it.
We paid no transfer fee but Sol made much higher wages than anyone else during his first contract.
While we certainly made a profit on selling Petit, Overmars, and Anelka, the players that replaced them were far from cheap. My whole point is Wenger went away from paying that much for players after the Emirates move.
We didn’t buy Vermaelen or sell Adebayor and Toure when our Highbury transfer policy was in effect. I just pointed out that Arenal have always been about a profit but even more so since the move into the Emirates.
we’ve virtually stopped trying to replace players we’ve sold for HUGE profits.
How anyone could witness this team, and its problems… this season, and do NOTHING in January, when we were within a few points of first… is beyond explanation.
There were options out there, especially at keeper, that are far better than Almunia… and I could say the same for Denilson too.
Not addressing the striker issue, is INSANE.
You don’t want to play Bendtner in the most important match of the season, because you’re afraid he’ll get re-injured.
Does that not say it all?
If we lose, we’re 9 points back.
Who cares if he’s healthy in March?
As for getting tired of seeing his players leave and succeed in the EPL.
I cant really think of any ex-Arsenal players that failed to break into Arsenal that made it elsewhere.
Owusu Abeyie?
Bentley?
Muamba?
Larsson?
NONE!
Wenger CAN make a strong statement at the Chelsea game.
Make CHANGES!
Drop Almunia and Denilson. Maybe even Clichy (though Traore isnt really better so that wont be a good trade).
Team should look like:
Fabianski
Sagna – Gallas – Vermaelen – Clichy
Fabregas – Song – Nasri
Walcott – Bendtner – Arshavin
Diaby, Ramsey, Eboue or Rosicky can then come in if needed.
Why on earth doesnt Nasri play in midfield???? He is useless upfront. He should be made to do more defensive work. I am sure he can do all the sideways passing Denilson does plus more. But he must stay BEHIND Fabregas, not in front of him.
Nasri and Song should be told to SIT in front of the defense and track runners.
Walcott’s main contribution should be to keep Ashley Cole in defense, if nothing else.
Nasri seems a very good finisher relative to his defensive abilities and physicality though he beats Denilson on both counts.
And I like the idea of Theo starting matches and then getting yanked if he can’t do the job, esp. in situations where a draw would be fine. His pace keeps defenses (A Cole in this case) from pushing too far up.
I’ve been stumping for Traore in MF ahead of Clichy as the two of them might make a single decent (defensive) LB. and Traore has the pace to get clear and whip in dangerous (low) crosses. Whether or not he can also go inside and play the tippy-tap is unknown.
So, I like your line-up but I’d play Diaby or Traore where you’ve got Nasri and use the latter as an impact-sub when we need that later goal to draw or win.
Of course, we must gird ourselves to see Almunia and Denilson instead….
I think Ashley Cole will respect Samir Nasri more than he will Walcott. I think he would even respect Eboue more than Walcott as Eboue’s a better link-up player.
I also think Fabregas is more effective with a playmaker in front of him, ala Hleb. It gives him more space and time on the ball to create. However, if you must have two holding players, Diaby is physically more imposing and more dynamic than Nasri.
Starting Bendtner so soon after such a long injury layoff is a slippery slope. He’s more vulnerable to picking up another injury right now. We should bring him along slowly. Why risk losing him to injury, potentially for the season, when he can help us win the rest of our easy BPL run-in? Also, we have the Champions League to consider and we’ll need a proper CF.
The fact is we can draw or even lose to Chelsea on Sunday but the title isn’t decided the first week of February. With our easy run in, we can be in the title race come May, not to mention the CL. We’ve got to look beyond the Chelsea game and we’ll need a proper CF.
I dont see how having Bendtner start is “rushing” him when he has been training for three weeks and has played in our last TWO games.
Are you suggesting we go with our midget attack against their CBs??
Ashley Cole has already gobbled Nasri up on two occasions already. Overlapping regularly each time.
Walcott might be utterly brainless, but he wont want to enter a footrace against him. No way!
Arsene LOVES you.
We can draw or lose and its still OK, because we’ll still be in the race.
Sure. Math-wise. anything is possible. Birmingham’s alive to win the league if you go by the numbers.
Don’t see Theo & Bendtner upfront with Arshavin.
Theo is a liability in defense and linking.
We need upfront players who can hold possession and allow others to exploit space behind them – or beat their man and cause defensive confusion.
More likely it will be Rosicky, Eduardo/Bendtner, and Arshavin
On the topic at hand…I enjoy trying to come up with new monikers for the various “fan philosophies” at work, but I agree with Kiwi and others that it can limit debate. I’m a hopeful guy by nature and I want the best result match to match, but I try not to get too high or too low with each result, and I attempt to maintain a jaundiced eye regarding the “true” quality of the team, as well as the players in our squad. (Does this make me a pragmatist?) At the same time, I believe that AW and others in the club’s management want the best for the team, in the short, middle and long-term. In that way I guess you would call me a Kool-Aid guzzler. I can’t believe that the clubs ahead of us keep giving us reasons to be hopeful (it’s almost cruel, really) given how we’ve shown so much frailty as a team (injuries, poor performances, certain players having epic crises of confidence, etc.) this season. Oh well, quite the roller coaster….
BTW, I love the site and DAG should be saluted, again and again, for giving us a place to come and do our thing. Also, I think the Garden Gnome idea (life-sized, for kits we can no longer bring ourselves to wear…) might be the merchandising idea to get our leader paid…(patent it quick!) :-)
But back to the hope….Chelsea draw at Hull?!? Watching parts of that match I was struck how they almost seem like us….going through the motions believing that their inherent quality will see them prevail. They too seem to have a serious problem with set pieces. Finally, Anelka looked at sea with Drogba back, and none of their midfield players yesterday (Ballack, Deco, Lampard, Malouda) could really get possession going or impose themselves on the match. They also looked a lot better when A. Cole finally came on to replace Zhirkov. All told, it was weird, but I just deeply felt that Hull would hang on for the draw, if not actually go on to win the match.
So optimism for Sunday? Not really. Will AW have the huevos to start Bendtner up front or bring in either Ramsey or Diaby for Denilson? Hmmm….And who sounds better between the posts: Almunia or Fabianski? (I’d take Hull’s Boaz Myhill in a heartbeat…) But plenty to discuss as the week moves on…
Put your thinking caps on and let me know how many Arsenal players you can list that signed for the club before the age of 21 and have or are gone on to become quality regulars in the first team.
I can list the following:
Vieira
Fabregas
then…..
Clichy (he’s a regular but the quality aspect is debatable)
Song (this year, after 4 years)
Interesting aye? We hear so much about all the diamonds…..yet the evidence suggests that the diamonds have tended to be over 21 when ‘found’…..then Arsene did the shining.
What picture does this paint of the youth project strategy? Most signings are now teenagers.
Here is the list of current players who joined before 21. Second number is the time spent at Arsenal
v Persie 20.8 5.6
Diaby 19.7 4.0
Vela 18.8 2.0
Denilson 18.5 3.3
Senderos 18.3 6.6
Clichy 18.0 6.4
Gibbs 18.0 2.3
Song 17.9 4.4
Ramsey 17.5 1.6
Mannone 17.3 4.5
Szczesny 17.3 2.4
Merida 16.9 3.0
Walcott 16.8 3.9
Traore 16.8 3.4
Bendtner 16.5 5.4
Djourou 16.5 6.4
Fabregas 16.4 6.3
Wilshere 9.7 8.3
Great list StatMan….
IMO there’s absolutely nothing wrong with taking calculated risks by signing up and coming (young players). The flip side is that then you have to be absolutely ruthless when you see that they are not going to become capable contributors in the first team. AW seems to have done this with Senderos, not so well with Denilson…
The other element is how do you bring these guys into the first team? Between injuries, bad draws in the CC and FA cups and our current brutal league schedule, the younger players have had a very intense spotlight shone upon them this season…And who has stepped up? Ramsey, Mannone and Traore for a bit, Merida with a couple of nice goals?
We can only afford a couple of young guns in the key moments when every minute on the pitch counts.
Ashley Cole and Nicolas Anelka were certainly under 21 when they signed and I think they were good players for Arsenal. I think Freddie Ljunberg, Kolo Toure, Emmanuel Adebayor, Robin van Persie, and Thierry Henry were close to 21 when they signed. I think they had significant impacts as well.
Keeping things in perspective, how many players in world football can be compared to Cesc Fabregas or Patrick Vieira? We should consider ourselves blessed to have two phenoms have played in our ranks and we paid only two million for the both of them.
Think about this; two seasons ago, people were saying how we should jettison Alex Song and Abou Diaby. Would you really want to sell those two right now? Trust me, some of the young players that are hated right now will follow the same path and come into their own as they approach their mid-twenties. Who expects a player to be a world beater at the age of 21? That’s why Wenger holds on to some of these guys. He continually considers the future of this club.
Of course I agree with this (and the short-term-only outlook of some fans is completely absurd), still, it’s getting to be time to deliver.
That said, any reasonable observer would suggest that we should evaluate this season in light of the injuries. Our young players are being asked to step into some very tough spots, sometimes when they’re clearly not fit.
Truth is, we’re actually not that young a squad and IF everyone had been fit AND had contributed at their expected level we probably would have seen some of the younger guys look a whole lot better. As it is, it’s a freaking miracle we’re in shouting distance of the top.
Nice post. Feel like sharing one of my posts on a similar topic.
“Once a Gunner, Always a Gunner..”
Hope everyone here likes it. I, like Michael, am a mix of Kool Aid Drinker and Eternal Pragmatist!
http://11gunners.com/opinion/once-a-gunner-always-a-gunner/483/
Share all you want its an open group here.
After watching the Hull-Chelsea highlights, it is clear that Chelsea’s major weakness is the aerial ball and set pieces. Now if Arsene is tactically astute, he would look to exploit that on Sunday. However, it also happens to be our greatest weakness, so it may all boil down to Drogba all over again.
aerial ball and Arsenal? Nah. You don’t want Arsenal to be another Villa who plays long balls, do you? :)
No, if Arsenal get a result, I expect #4 from Kiwi’s point above to do the trick because that is the right way to do things, apparently.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1246912/Do-Aston-Villa-really-play-long-ball-game-Arsene.html
So DAG, you saw your first Arsenal game in person in May 1989? That had to be just days before the famous Anfield victory, yes?
Friday 26 May 1989 WAS the famous match at Anfield. I am still stunned that my introduction to the team is probably one of its most glorious days in its history.
So while you were seeing that game live, I was watching it via TV a bit further away (well a lot further) and getting my own amazing introduction as well.
WOW!!! That’s truly amazing.
I posted this back on AA around the 20th Anniversary. But it’s worthy of another read…
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/mar/29/arsenal-liverpool-1989-football
For you, it must be that constant search for that same thrill, yet knowing it can never be “as good as the first time”….
Talk about having your “cherry” popped.
Honestly though the magnitude of what I had seen – didn’t really sink until around 1995 when following the team became a little easier through AOL UK.
At the time I knew I had seen some really exciting football and completely fell in love with the sport all over again.
While the post is about fans, I want to mention some thoughts regarding a player’s and a manager’s loyalty towards their team. In my early Arsenal loving days (1989, as it turns out), there were plenty of players who thought of only the club and you could tell that from their performances and behaviour. Then under Arsene’s title winning teams (1998-2004), there were also thankfully plenty of players who were all Arsenal. You could tell they wore their love for the club on their sleeves and worked hard. Heck, Freddie even dyed his hair red. Arsene clearly bled for Arsenal and you could see the pain etched on his face after any loss. The players love for their team also helped in enduring them towards the fans. Everything was great. Then what happened?
The Emirates came along, the team got dismantled quickly and with the threat of money taking over the game via Chelsea, it seems playing beautiful football and winning were not enough for Arsenal anymore. Another requirement added by Arsene appeared to be was winning with principles. What were those principles? Not “breaking the bank”, earning profits and winning with youth? David Dein was then gone, and an influx of new players came in. Clearly with the new bunch, not every requirement could be satisfied, meaning winning would not happen reguarly, beautiful football would not always be apparent, but there had to be requirement that always had to be met. The board had to pick something to measure progress against and they went with 4th place, CL football and profits. As long as that was met, then everything else would be ignored.
Then the complex equation of Arsenal had only one variable on the right hand side, Arsene.
So Arsenal = Arsene.
I don’t believe in the title winning years, Arsenal was only Arsene. There were others (such as Dein) who worked hard behind the scenes, kept things in check, got the necessary deals done and plenty of players who had a say in things. But after Dein and the senior players who bled for the team were gone, then only Arsene remained who was pure Arsenal. So that also meant that Arsenal was guided solely by Arsene. Back in 2005, I would have been fine with that option because everything Arsene did was for the team’s benefit.
While Arsene still loves the club but has every decision he made in the last few years been for the good of Arsenal football club? Evidence points against it. One can say that every manager has some form of principles or ego and that is what will ensure a manager will be able to go against the tide and prevail against all the odds. But a balance is required. A principle should not get in the way of the team’s progress.
And right now I think Arsene’s loyalty towards some players and his principles of not wanting to replace any of them is hurting the team. I will still have this sentiment if Arsenal win the league this season. If Arsenal win the league (however incredible such a statement seems), does that mean that Almunia should stay past summer? Does that mean from next season onwards, RVP, Rosicky, Eduardo, Walcott will be 100% fit for every single game? Would a title mean that Clichy would get his concentration back and not appear to be stuck endlessly in the purgatory of that last minute mistake against Birmingham?
Arsenal football club comes first. Meaning, every decision made by the manager should be for the good of the club. Now, if the good of the club only means profits, then I will still support Arsenal but will be cautious about paying for any Arsenal related merchandise in the future. And if the good of the club is only about profits, then I will stop looking at the league table and have to find a profit table to look at every week. So while watching each game, I should then try to figure out how each give away or missed tackle would effect the club’s profits.
Personally I don’t think its about profits its about sustainability…football seems to me to be at a breaking point. Teams cannot afford to buy players (read: january transfer window) because the market is so inflated by a few money machines.
Even the most prudent of teams (arsenal) needs CL football in order to continue to run successfully. I think that says it all when it comes to the state of affairs of football clubs in England (Europe even).
I thought about the sustainability aspect as well. That had to be put in place when a new stadium was being built but should the club have then raised more money upfront to cushion some of the debt they were going to incur? For example, a club like Arsenal could have gotten more from the shirt sponsorship deal than they got at the time.
Yes the Highbury flats were supposed to have been sold off but then the market crunch happened and uncertainty took place, etc.
Although if Arsenal want to balance the books properly, they need to get rid of the high wage earning injury prone players from their books. That is money wasted on a weekly basis. Why is that not happening? Why are some players who clearly have nothing to offer (like a certain ex- Man Utd defender) kept around?
It is a tough balance keeping profits/debt in check but I am not sold on that argument anymore. Why not bring a player in for loan for 3-4 months? How much harm can come of that? If the club does well, then that player’s 3 month salary might be covered off?
How many of the existing board are pouring their money into the club? David Dein did once upon a time but are the current bunch only getting profits from Arsenal? If the board cared, could they not release some of their yearly profits for the team’s benefit?
There have been some owners in the past who have incurred personal financial losses for the sake of the team. I don’t think any such board member exists at Arsenal right now. But even if the board offered free money to Arsene for one player, would he take it?
Your comments here are very astute. Mine, I’m sure, will be lost as people don’t read up too high….
The stadium/youth/CL spot idea, IMO, has gained traction in the management of the club. And the management has become hardened to the point that they no longer hear the cries of the fans who demand trophies now (or lately AWs head)….embodied nicely in the comments of our own Stag133….
Interestingly, the team has added experience (Arshavin, Silvestre, Campbell) and seems to be counting on other older players to make key contributions (Gallas, Dudu, Rosicky, RVP). Right now, it doesn’t seem likely and the number of these guys dealing with injuries (crocks?) seems telling.
Personally, I don’t want a “sugar-daddy” and the debt troubles at Liverpool and United that sometimes come with them. (And the ousting of David Dein and the maneuvers to keep him and Usmanov from buying a majority share seem to show the board’s feeling on the matter.) Gambling on real estate (Highbury condos and the new stadium) seems like a better strategy. And, while the reversal in the market has thwarted what might have been extreme success with it, we are mostly on a positive financial course.
Given that we keep getting scraps of hope thrown our way it will be very interesting how the club respond if the “promise” of this season goes unrealized. Certainly there is pretty extreme discontent brewing. I wonder if the club will symbolically jettison some of the players on good contracts who have failed to contribute, even if keeping these players makes more sense financially.
Thanks. I am not too keen on a “sugar-daddy” type as that comes with its own problems and consequences. But there has to be a change in player personnel in the summer, no matter where Arsenal end up this season. My #1 candidate for replacement is Almunia. He has to go. There are others on my list as well, but I will start with one for now. Can’t wish for too much at once :)
The keeper situation is dire…If only Fabianski had been able to keep a clean sheet on ANY of his outings. And Mannone never seemed the answer, but now he’s been given a long term contract?
I comfort myself by thinking that I don’t know the value/structure of all these contracts so maybe it’s not so painful to show some of these players the door or sell them cheaply.
Sachin – would you consider Torres a high wage earning injury prone player ?
I would.
but since he is possibly the best striker in the world, when healthy, he’s more worth a gamble for Liverpool.
“How lucky was Arsenal to have the nucleus of Henry, Bergkamp, Vieira?
Don’t you believe Arsene is trying to find these types of impact players? Do you think he thrives on frustrating the fans and himself?”
_______________________________________
Very lucky. Not really. Yes and no. ;-)
Would Arsene have bought Bergkamp if he wasn’t at the club when he was appointed manager? Can you answer that? I’ve often wondered.
RvP is no Henry. No one on our books is like Henry or Anelka – why not? Why not a fast sharp edge?
And we seem to have moved away from the physically dominating CM ala Vieira. Again, why so?
So it’s hard to agree with you AS that Arsene is the same Arsene intensely looking for impact gems to provide a quick return. The only thing I see is a strategy in process of procuring young players with 5-8 year time horizons until they mature.
He knows this frustrates us and he doesn’t care.
i dont think its as straight forward as that maybe AW is looking at a bigger picture then just success today…
– the new 6+5 homegrown rule
– Not being reliant on CL money to survive
– sustainable success: you cant go out and spend 10s of millions of dollars every year (i.e liverpool/man u) sooner or later the money runs dry
i would hate to think AW is just out to prove himself for the sake of his pride.
In the end i guess we’ll never know til an autobiography comes out ;)
but its OK to MAKE millions selling players every year, and not putting it back into the squad…
sooner or later the money runs dry … if you are NOT making money, we make profit EVERY YEAR, so its there to spend.
Wenger refuses.
failing to win anything, and thinking the flock of fans will rubber stamp it, is not “sustainable”
Generational players: Henry, Bergkamp, Vieira
Maybe Theo was to take over the Henry mantel ?
When a manager takes over at a club, his effort is to make immediate impression with fans, owners, and media. There is an urgency to sign key players to bolster performance. As you settle into acceptance, you start implementing programs that support the end product: youth academy, scouting, stadium, etc.
Most of this peripheral effort is long-term.
Agree we need more physical presence in our line up: I’m sure with his selection of Bendtner and Diaby were attempts. The right type of player: technical and tactical excellance to conform with our midfield talent.
I believe Arsene wanted to add a striker when Ade was sold, but market prices were inflated, and regardless of what is released on our finances – I believe there was real concern to remain conservative on outlays.
We’ll just have to see how this season plays out for league & CL play.
I understand the sentiment Stag but I wonder if this is as much a natural evolution of Wenger’s management thinking as it is a by-product of the move to the Emirates. I mean if we had stayed at Highbury would it be any different?
Arsene has always been a footballing romantic even at Monaco. His initial success at Arsenal was a fusion of the old (GG’s defence + Bergkamp) and the new midfield/attack he overlaid. Pragmatism and brilliance at its best – a masterstroke. After that though, one gets the impression his deep lying romantic footballing ideals increasingly came to the fore and the pragmatic element was relegated and eventually ditched altogether. The Emirates debt was a convenient smokescreen and a means of keeping the board reliant and compliant.
Kiwi…
this is true.
I have to agree, it might be just Arsene and not the alleged debt, holding the club back.
You might be correct.
“Victory at Burnley was Chelsea’s first away win in the league since November’s thwacking of Arsenal.”
I read that last night, but when I saw that Chelsea are playing Hull, I thought – no chance! But what do you know!! Maybe there is hope after all.
As one blogger said – Arsenal staying in the title race this season (even before Sunday’s defeat) has as much to do with others failing as it has to do with Arsenal succeeding. But who cares!
I still feel we will draw at SB. After the humiliation at Emirates, Arsene dare not go to SB in a gung ho attacking fashion. He will play lot more conservatively and I think we can get a draw. Let us see.
how does that get us back into the race, when we are 6 points back, and also behind United?
4. “that is Arsenal football”…..well it is since 2005.
Arsene’s Arsenal has always had a narrow style but it has narrowed even further. We never have used wingers in the traditional sense, yet now the slowness in our buildup means we don’t even attack with pace down the flank. Clichy goes on isolated runs yet they end nowhere.
Before 2005 we sliced through teams at pace, on the counter, like a hot knife through butter. Searing, clinical, direct and deadly. Somewhere along the ‘Road to the Emirates’ Arsene had an enlightenment experience and decided to introduce the metronome. I can only think it has to do with Fabregas strenghts and Arsene’s ‘new vision’ for football at the Emirates.
I have never EVER read or heard anyone, no sage..blogger…writer….commentator explain why this happened. You would think logically the bigger pitch provides even more space to play with pace on the counter. But no, we hardly ever counter and we have no pace up front even with RvP.
So, Mike, I think Arsenal under Arsene have had 2 styles. Very distinct. The only real constant is the commitment to accurate passing (which of course we all treasure).
As for one-dimensional….yes everyone has a style but some teams have a more encompassing style. The Manc’s don’t play only one way. Their football is quite all-encompassing. They try and open you up a number of ways.
I’m over Robin. He’s our Saha. 35% starts over 6-7 seasons is awful. We need to move on.
yes, I agree… pre 2005, was a different animal.
I wish the Emirates never happened… it seems to be a major factor in our decline…
If the Emirates doesn’t happen – we are a mid table club at best.
how do you figure that we are mid-table?
Before Emirates, were we mid-table?
or were we among the best in Europe?
How did we manage that at Highbury?
And they could DEFINITELY have added seating to the stadium… maybe not to get it to 60,000… but why does it have to be, if the cost of building the stadium is not being able to go after top players.
I do not agree that Arsenal ever would have been mid-table at best at Highbury… please tell me what you would base that on.
And by the way – this was more of way for me just to externalize the pain I feel internally after an Arsenal loss.
Sorry for an arbit reply mate. I was wondering how does one contribute to your site. I, btw, write for 11Gunners. Do leave me a mail on 11gunnerz@gmail.com with more.
Cheers
Tazz
I have to agree – with Kiwi – classifying us into any category does demean the level of conversation – but it is fun.
I mean come on – who doesn’t like a a good Kool Aider arguing with an ardent Nay Sayer just to have a pragmatic fan come in and articulate both sides of the story. Only to have them both bomb it to shreds.
I’ll say this about this crew – I visit many of the other Arsenal Blogs and a lot of them write better stuff than I do – 7amkickoff and Arseblog for example – but overall the level of knowledge, the discourse and the understanding (from all perspectives) is better here than any other place I frequent.
Anyway I digress –
1. I am surprised at our lack of width – there are players we have you look at and think they should be shredding it on the wings. Now part of that may have to do without having any internal targets to really shoot for. who knows.
2. I think RvP hadn’t he gotten hurt was on his way to being that 1st rate striker – but what we need is if RvP is Anelka then he needs his Drogba. We need a monster in the middle.
3. I don’t think its our inability to cross – Traore, Sagna and Gibbs are all capable.
4. That is Arsenal football.
5. That surprises me too. We have a lot of speed on this team we should be killing teams on the counter.
6. Noone on this team finishes that well
7. Every team is one dimensional. They have a style and they play it.
8. Hence my philosophy at every GDC session – SHOOT THE DAMN BALL
where is our speed?
when we had the best counter attack in football, it was Pires, Freddie and Henry up front…
Who has great speed other than Theo?
Shoot the damn ball. Exactly. I agree. So why are people slating Arshavin for shooting the damned ball, trying to make it happen? I’d want him shooting more than any other player in the team, and yet… he was selfish… should have passed the ball into the net.??????
Keep shooting Arsh…
AS, I wasn’t criticising Mike, on the contrary I commended him on his post and this site.
What I was and am saying is that categorising people into groups kills intelligent debate.
My parallel of Arsenal and Barca was to make a point. As for Arsenal having our own stamp on the game, yes to be sure we do. Although the stamp that Arsene so skillfully fashioned between 1996-2004 as an exciting, compelling successful team has been steadily eroded from 2005-2010. Five years is a very long time in professional sport – how long can a manager sell the future?
As for our current style, I think it is over-hyped. I don’t think it is as good as it needs to be. There are number of things I don’t like:
1. the almost total lack of width
2. the lack of a first-class striker (including RvP)
3. our inability to cross
4. the metronomic lateral & backward passing game
5. the lack of fast breaks and intensity
6. the lack of clinical finishing
7. the one-dimensional nature in our game plan
8. our intricate approach play across the box and waiting for the perfect shot
Some of those are related, and for that I apologise I’m not meaning to exaggerate. I know that’s a lot of ‘don’t likes’ yet I think critical elements of our play need to greatly mature. The progress we saw in the early part of this season was in part due to the freshness in some of our play. We saw for the first time in several years pressing all over the pitch and Vermaelen (and others) provided unexpected goals many of them headed and opportunistic. The pressing and the opportunistic goals have abated.
Agree with many of your points but:
Arsenal has been a club for 100 years. Of those 100 years, how long were the stretches b4 they won any silverware?
the boston red sox failed to win the world series for 90 years. the pittsburgh pirates haven’t had a winning season in 18 years; new orleans saints never made it to the super bowl in 40 years. Yet these clubs and others fill the stadiums for most home games.
How long has it been since Pool has won the league? City, Villa, Everton, Fulham, Spurs. They still have strong following!
When Arsene was hired, did fans expect a double right off the start? Had it taken 4 or 5 years, would expectations be different?
How lucky was Arsenal to have the nucleus of Henry, Bergkamp, Vieira?
Don’t you believe Arsene is trying to find these types of impact players? Do you think he thrives on frustrating the fans and himself?
Arsesession…
ONCE the club started winning, prices went up on everything… and Arsene Wenger himself said we could compete with the best teams in Europe for ALL the trophies… it changes.
The Red Sox (and I’m in Boston) are my EXACT example. Once they won after 86 years… it all CHANGED. It is no longer acceptable for the Sox to finish behind the Yankees. They have the money, and they also charge among the highest ticket prices. If they don’t win the World Series, its FAILURE and the fans want blood.
The Pittsburgh Pirates have one of the lowest attendances in baseball. Haven’t drawn decent crowds for YEARS.
The New Orleans Saints ONLY fill their stadium RECENTLY. They used to literally wear BAGS over their heads at Saints games, because they were so bad. Their games were regularly blacked out on TV, because they failed to sell enough tickets.
3rd or 4th place and no trophies for 5 years is simply not acceptable any more for Arsenal.
If they reduce their ticket prices, lower their prices on merchandise, and let the supporters know in advance that they will continue to sell off star players, and replace them with younger, less experienced players whom they HOPE to make stars… then all is well, and people will understand the philosophy and make their decisions on going to games and buying merchandise… and supporting the team.
I believe Wenger has lost the plot, and is unwilling to change with the times, and adapt the way he does things, even though he is FAILING.
“Arsene Wenger himself said we could compete with the best teams in Europe for ALL the trophies”
So Stag – it goes back to everyone’s expectation of time lines.
Red Sox, Pirates, Saints – I used these teams as a reference for fan’s following their teams with no short term success.
Attendance issue is irrelevant to this discussion – as in MLB & NFL , the owners don’t put out a penny of their own money for the stadium cost.
Selling off star players: why would Wenger sell off his star players, unless the player no longer wanted to stay OR he could no longer compete (age, etc).
Arsene hasn’t lost any plot, but his responsibilities encompass far reaching issues that most fans have no interest or concern.
ALL 3…
Red Sox, Pirates, and Saints… had POOR attendence when the teams were not good.
Fans “follow” their team, but are less likely to go to games, spend money on merchandise, etc… when the team is NOT WINNING, and NOT SPENDING MONEY to try to win.
In the case of the Pirates (and a few other teams in baseball)… the club does not even try to compete on the field, they don’t spend enough money to be competitive.
How is attendance irrelevant?
If there are no fans at games, there are NO GAMES.
You can’t pay the players without interest in your sport or team.
Some owners OWN and PAY for their stadiums… The Krafts BUILT their stadium in Foxboro, with ALL their money.
So, you are saying that no star players that have left the club are able to play?
or they left because they wanted to? Pires left because he wanted to? or was it that he was 30 years old?
Do you want a laundry list of players sold for profit that we didn’t replace?
You are right, Arsene is a genius, and it is not important that he win anything… what’s important is that he makes money for the club.
player contracts in US sports markets are totally different from European…
media revenue supports ownership in MLB & NFL…….few own – Kraft maybe the exception.
DAG – spot on!
“It is commonplace for people to categorise people in to groups although in this context I find it tends to be a very limiting exercise with no value other than to form teams. And as YAMAs forming and branding ourselves into teams tends to reduce the quality of discussion to the childlike.”
Kiwi, I don’t believe DAG had ever intended for this theme to be a post, until very recently; it evolved from our own actions & reactions of the club, spirited commentary: subjective and objective. The forming and branding we did ourselves and he didn’t need to categorize the Arsenal fan to reduce the quality of discussion to childlike – again, we did it ourselves.
If we didn’t have the internet, there would be no way to bring fans together in this format. This blog site and others, for me its a social experiment for how we communicate with others whom we have never met.
I may disagree with DAG, Stag, Mazza, Fred, others, and you, but what I’ve noticed is that when we are winning and playing well, most focus on the positives and there is harmony; when the team plays below expectation, there is frustration vented differently.
As much as I bashed Arshavin for his Sunday performance, I enjoy watching him play: as well as Rosicky, Song, Eduardo, Cesc, Diaby, Bendtner, Vermaelen, and Nasri.
I DON’T WANT TO BE THE ENGLISH EQUIVALENT OF BARCA. I look at Arsenal as Arsenal, with its own stamp on the game.
The season is not over. Sunday, we will kick Chelsea’s butt for 90 minutes, take the 3 points and then proceed to demolish Pool.
can I have some of what you are on?
based on what match you’ve seen Arsenal play this season… do you think we can win on the road, at Chelsea?
It’s a serious question. I won’t even address the bravado of “kick Chelsea’s butt for 90 minutes”.
If we were to win on Sunday, and I HIGHLY doubt it… it will have to be a steal job. smash and grab.
Mike that was a good post and thanks again for ‘our’ site and the effort you go to. Kudos man.
It is commonplace for people to categorise people in to groups although in this context I find it tends to be a very limiting exercise with no value other than to form teams. And as YAMAs forming and branding ourselves into teams tends to reduce the quality of discussion to the childlike. Rather than debating points and issues on their merits we inflect everything with ‘kool aiders’ of ‘doom mongers’ which relegates the discussion to the pub level on the intellect scale.
Chelsea’s latest result, and 2 dropped points is excellent and a further sign as to why grand declarations of our demise our ‘courageous’ to say the least. Some folk have been pointing out that the Mancs won the league yet performed really really badly head to head against the other big teams.
With that in mind there was another path Arsene could have taken toward the Manc match and that was to play very conservatively. To try not to lose. I know it sounds foreign to our ears yet that is what many elite managers would do. They would assess the risk of losing the game with our normal attacking approach (and available resources)? If the risk seemed high they would alter the team approach for that game.
Now, I’m confident Arsene would reject this ‘pragmatism’ and say that Arsenal play a certain way and we need to stay true to our principles. Sounds good aye, but you have to wonder whether it is a fudge. What principle exactly is it that we are following by playing Arshavin as an isolated CF? The answer? None. It was Arsene’s form of pragmatism – a horrible skewed twist on resource utilisation. If he wanted to maximise Arsenals ability to stick to their game and beat the Mancs he should have played a genuine striker and let Arshavin support him.
I suggest, given our (largely self-inflicted) injury problems in attack and Arsene’s refusal to stay true to our attacking formation (by playing a proper striker – be it Bendtner or a reserve player) he should have assessed our vulnerability and adopted a strategy not to lose. A draw against the Mancs would have stopped them making ground on us and protected our goal-differential. We would also claw back 1 point on Chelsea. It would also avoid embarrassment to our club. Instead we got tonked again and all the big-talk from Arsene and the players makes them look slightly pathetic and flakey.
Truth is, I’m ok with Arsene’s attack-minded Barca-like style toward the game. I don’t get quite as heated about CB and DM as others. I think it will work when the personnel are right. And there is the rub, you have to give this style a fighting chance and I don’t think he did on Sunday. Nor did he by refusing to address the attacking area of the team in either the pre-season or the transfer window. Let me simplfy it – if you want to be the English equivalent of Barca then make sure you have the strike/attacking contingent to give it a chance. Arshavin/Nasri/Rosicky are a lame joke.
If you don’t have the strike power then you need to be a bit more clever and accept that sometimes you have to close games down and take a point.
Personally i think we would have gotten hit just as hard if we had been conservative do you really think we could sit back and defend i cant even imagine it lol
Obviously in hindsight it seems the best strategy but coming into the game we had done very weel against man u at OT earlier in the season (i think cesc was missing?) as well as last season in the league. Also look at the CB starting pairing of man u how you can you not have a crack at them? no rio no vidic no way we come out at home and play conservatively…
so in your own words, we lost badly to a United team without Vidic or Rio in their line-up, but you think we’re good enough?!?!?
Ozi – the potential to win at the bridge is there – it comes down to the desire and mental toughness to slug it out for the win.
That and a keeper not named Manuel Almunia.
Which leads me to the first YAMA T Shirt I am designing (over the weekend) is the “Anyone But Manny” T Shirt.
Why not just steal the line from the great ex-Red Sock, Manny Ramirez.
His line actually says it all:
“It’s just Manny being Manny”!
:)
1-1 Chelsea final score. Hope still? I’ll wait till Sunday before truly beginning to hope again.. Again, we do have the potential within this very squad to win at the Bridge, but I’m unsure of the mental toughness.
The pendulum swings back and forth all season…
from humiliating loss to Chelsea, onto a nice run of games to put us in the mix, to the humiliating loss v. United…
I’d say unfortunately, we will always fall in the middle… we are never as BAD as we show, or as good as we show…
but as a fan (and sometimes in life)… you have to cut your losses.
You can’t continue to invest, when you keep getting beat down over and over and over again (5 years running).
When you can see the problems, and I can see the problems, and we can all see the problems, and they are never addressed… its insane to think the results will change.
The various personalities and people on the site… be it realists or hippies, petes or nicks, doom or pie-in-the-sky… it is part of what makes it interesting to watch the game, and discuss it with other fans.
I’ll say this though… 5 years running, it is plain as day…
not – good – enough.
ridiculous we are good enough this year and we were good enough a couple of years ago…
based on what?
good enough for 3rd or 4th place only.
how are we good enough to beat Chelsea or United?
ZERO basis in fact this year, and a couple of years ago, we won NOTHING, so that is the end of that story.
And as a fan I delight that Hull have gone up 1-0 on the Chavs in the 33rd minute
as a one-time unequivocal KOOL-AID GUZZLER, now a nay-saying-wannabe-doom & gloomer…
I’ll letcha know its 1-1, because Chelsea are who they are… and also that if they drop points at Hull, they’ll just take it out on Arsenal anyway!