The Great Arsenal Survey
Greetings Gooners. It must be an interlull because I am coming up with all sorts of crazy articles. This one has a purpose though. This is the Great Arsenal Survey. Well, it’s great to me. Anyway its 4 little 10 questions surveys designed to get right to the heart of the fans perspective on a myriad of things.
First we want to know all about you and some initial thoughts on your support of the team. Then we would like to get your thoughts on the organization and how it is run. Following that, we’d like to get your views on the players and the final set of 10 questions is all about our current manager – Arsene Wenger.
So how do you do it? It’s simple, click on the links below for each survey. Answer the 10 questions and click done. Most of the questions are simple yes and no. All in all we don’t think it should take any time at all. We are not collecting any sort of personal information like name, email or address. This is totally anonymous.
In the end our goal is to target up to 1000 Gooners/Gunners to take this survey. When it is completed we will write up a piece on our findings to try and get a gauge of the Arsenal kingdom is within relation to the hearts and minds of its fans.
So without further adieu – here it is the Great Arsenal Survey:
Section 1: About You: Click here to take survey
Section 2: The Organization: Click here to take survey
Section 3: The Players: Click here to take survey
Section 4: The Manager: Click here to take survey
Our surveys are courtesy of the folks at Survey Monkey. If you want to do you your there is no place better.
Thank you for your time and effort and stay tuned for the results.
Stay Goonerish!!
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AISA = Arsenal Independent Supporters Association
“AISA has called for a freeze on prices due to be paid by gold members next season, and has also proposed that Arsenal introduce a loyalty package for all season-ticket holders.”
———-
Let’s see what the club say to this request by its SUPPORTERS.
AISA = Arsenal Independent Supporters Association
“AISA has called for a freeze on prices due to be paid by gold members next season, and has also proposed that Arsenal introduce a loyalty package for all season-ticket holders.”
———-
Let’s see what the club say to this request by its SUPPORTERS.
There are TONS of players in Europe much better than Denilson, Diaby, Eboue, Squillaci, Almunia, Rosicky and even Bendy and Koz. Of those players the vast majority would cost less than 10 M, and the vast majority would be happy with 50k pw or less.
The pool of players who have all three characteristics listed above probably numbers in the hundreds. Wenger can pick and choose from that pool. Again, the idea that there are “no quality players” out there in January or whenever is just not true.
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Stekenlenburg has 226 caps for Ajax …. so I actually undercounted his early 2000s record. Wikipedia is wrong.
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/player/_/id/11631/maarten-stekelenburg?cc=5901
For Holland, he has 39 caps.
Very experienced indeed.
Ofcourse, we won’t get him.
————————————————————————-
Clichy is considering his options because he might be as thick as custard but even he realizes he will probably never win anything with the Wenger Babes. Messi didnt “stay away” from Clichy. In case you haven’t noticed for the last 2 seasons, Messi has moved away from being a strict right-sided AM/winger to being a full-time roamer.
Even at that, the VAST majority of the thru balls Barca made were through Clichy’s position to the overlapping attacker or wing-back. We are talking being cut out well over TWENTY times in one game.
There were a few thru balls thru the middle, but just about two or three thru Sagna.
Add that to the fact that Clichy failed to step up for Messi’s first goal. Koz and DJ were raising their hands for the offside. Calamity meanwhile had not read the memo and just like in the first leg for Villa’s goal was lacking “a little bit of brain sharpness”. So armed with those facts, imagine IF Messi had actually decided to target him? It would definitely have been a gory scene.
Clichy is not one of the best LBs in the world. He does work hard though, running around to try to nick balls around the center line, so that does please the crowd. But basically, he loses out on almost all thru balls because he gets dragged out of position so very easily, he panics under pressure, and he commits countless needless fouls. He is also an offensive zero.
If he wants to go, we should take the money happily.
@Fred, Agree with much of what you’re saying here regarding Clichy and the Barca matches….Unfortunately, Barca are one of the few clubs tossing around money wantonly, so his value on the “outside” is probably down….Still no confirmation (from the News Now sources at least), so if Clichy has re-upped with us, I’d love to hear about it and the terms of the contract extension….
And likewise for all the other players…..(It would be so much easier to discuss what we see about the “value” of players if we had some real figures at our disposal….)
@highburyterracesteve,
In Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, Switzerland, France and pretty much all the Nordic countries they are very, very transparent with regards to player compensation and club finances. In Germany especially where the fans own the clubs for the most part.
In all those countries, they have pseudo freedom-of-information laws that make getting the data as easy as sending the club a mail asking for a copy of their detailed finances.
(In Germany, Bayern have been taking advantage of these laws for years by snapping up folks by simply offering them a 25-50% wage increase – ofcourse that is why every non-Municher hates them so much over there.)
So in general, in all these countries, because of the relative transparency and the multitudes of major soccer-only newspapers, the wages reported by the media are by rule-of-thumb accurate.
In England, the Deloitte report gives detailed analysis of club finances for their paid product (not the summary one they make public each year). So basically, the data the club reports to the taxman. I would say the numbers listed in non-tabloid papers are generally accurate.
In Italy, they have a very corrupt system. There is a former classmate of mine who works with Torino (Juve’s poorer cousin) and his company has done a lot of consultancy work across Italy, Switzerland and Germany. And he tells me not to believe the numbers in Italy, as they are generally 25% off. And in some southern clubs especially, the books get cooked outright.
All in all, outside of Italy, Monaco and East Europe, data reported by media is accurate.
And finally, no, there is no universal data base listing every player and their weekly wages. From France Football you can get a database of Ligue 1 & 2 players and their monthly wages. Other than that I don’t know of any continent or league wise database.
@Fred, Clichy is one of the BEST LB’s in the Premier League.
RUNS his socks off EVERY match… runs forward, tracks back… and he is DEFINITELY not the problem at Arsenal FC.
@stag133,
Clichy is NOT in any way whatsoever “one of the best LBs”.
He is a defensive zero.
He is an offensive zero.
He gets caught out of position very, very often.
He panics consistently.
He has NO understanding of the off-side rule.
Running “socks off” is a good crowd pleaser but is not the job criteria of a good full back. A good one should be defensively solid and if possible also offensively decisive. Clichy doesn’t fulfill either.
Offensively he is worse than Eboue. Defensively he is on par with Eboue. And we all know Eboue is an absolutely useless player. So how any one can claim Clichy is a top-class full back is beyond me.
Ofcourse, Clichy is not our top-most problem. The LB position is not a central one – therefore not as important. We already have massive bombs exploding away down the GK, CB, DM, CF spine of the team – making Clichy’s deficiencies pale in comparison.
If he wants to go, we should JOYFULLY take the money AND buy a proper replacement.
@Fred, couldn’t be more wrong.
you love scapegoating this guy on goals he isn’t even on the pitch for…
WITHOUT QUESTION, one of the BEST LB’s in the EPL.
@Fred, couldn’t be more wrong.
you love scapegoating this guy on goals he isn’t even on the pitch for…
WITHOUT QUESTION, one of the BEST LB’s in the EPL.
@stag133,
Haha, I like that you don’t bother arguing that he is not a defensive or offensive zero. We all know he is BOTH.
Offensively, he is NOT in the top 10 in the EPL. His 2 assists in 5 years and his general inability to get to the byline or actually cross puts paid to that.
Defensively, he is a zero. No discipline. A panic machine. One of the best in EPL? No way Jose.
Overall, he has not been on most fans “Must get rid of” list, because no one believes Wenger will get rid of a young Frenchie, BUT he is the one who is looking to leave.
And I say GOOD RIDDANCE. We should put up a sign that says “No refunds!”, so that when the technical players in Spain or Italy rape him relentlessly, the buying club don’t come crying back.
fred, i wanted you to talk about the number of good players typically available in january. you did an awful lot of talking about a bunch of other stuff. in fairness, i agree with much of what you said, but you failed to reamin on topic. you only mentioned one player who fit the discussion topic with six months remaining on his contract . i think that proves my point that there simply aren’t that many good options in the january window unless you’re willing to waste millions. most businesses aren’t willing to do that.
dag, if stekelenburg really said that, then it would obviously be a come and get me plea to wenger. also, this is his way of publicly stating his preference of arsenal over man united, meaning no bidding war with united. you can imagine ferguson has been courting him as a successor to van der sar. wenger’s got to buy him. it would be tough on our young poles as i think they’ve both played better than anyone expected this season. but stekelenburg is world class. you’ve got to respect that. while i don’t think he has an many caps as fred has suggested, he’s certainly vastly experienced. we’ll see how this goes.
i’m also concerned about clichy leaving. i’m sure he’s read all of the “calamity clichy” barbs from arsenal fans and, at 25, is smart to consider his options. with just over a year remaining, he’s in a position of power. if it’s about money, arsenal have got to pay that kid. he’s one of the best left backs in the world, he’s a stud, and his best years are ahead of him. did anyone notice when we played barcelona, that messi stayed away from clichy? most importantly, in a lazy team, he is one of a few players who works his socks off every time he steps on the pitch. this is exactly the kind of player arsenal need to keep.
Clichey just re-upped his contract. No need to worry about that one any more. Just hope Denilson would relinquish his. :yes:
@Caribkid,
Where did you see this?
@Caribkid, Yes, CK, I’m curious too, as I haven’t seen any reports. Also, when do we get your blow-by-blow from your trip to London? (Or is it just too painful?…..)
And while I’m asking for things….Fred (or anybody else), where can I find all the contract details (pay per week, length of contract, etc.) for all the (overpaid) Arsenal players? It would seem good to have the data that everybody is trying to discuss…..
@Caribkid,
Add me to the list. All I’ve seen on the blogs for the last week are rumors he’s holding out on re-signing and looking elsewhere.
That was a great post Steve :-D all the way.
I agree with Josh about the Jan transfer window. It is always going to be difficult to get quality at the right price and of course the Mongers still cannot name the names.
I also agree with Fred partially, in that Arsene should have made a better attempt at buying the required personnel (particularly DM/CM and GK) years ago. In retrospect he should never have let Flamini go but then he thought he had Diarra. But we should not forget Wenger did try to buy the likes of Melo and Inler and possibly others we do not know about. I think Shez is a fantastic prospect but not the world class GK we need but then again neither is Reina in my opinion.
@Stan ;-) DAG was right on the quote, Wilson was referring to the big bid being made public knowledge by the club. Your essay of denial doesn’t alter that fact.
Who said this?:
“If an offer from Arsenal arrives, I will leave.”
Maarten Stekelenburg
Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
Lionel Messi
Ruud Van Nistleroy
Serdar Tosic
@DaAdminGooner,
Kapungo Kapako, a 12 year old from Lagos?
@Mazza,
Holy shite, that is funny.
@DaAdminGooner,
The Ajax number one is a top, top, top class goalie. For a guy that tall – 6ft 6in, he is very agile, excellent leadership and command of box. Also ridiculously experienced with almost 200 caps and TEN seasons at Ajax! For a 28 year old that is solid.
He earns about 15k per week in Holland (which is a lot over there mind you!) and he would jizz himself if we offered him a 30 k per week contract. Compare that to the 60 k per week Manuel Almunia is currently receiving. (PS: Van der Sar is on 40 k per week!). Go figure!
Such a keeper with Chesny as number 2 will set us up solidly for the next decade!
But the chances of this happening is absolutely ZERO. Wenger would rather die than do such a thing! Infact, the atlantic would freeze over before that happens. We would instead persist with the comical GK rotation we have going on, with the two Poles playing musical chairs, and with the younger Pole LEARNING his trade with us, as we drop cups and title aspirations on the way. And the AKBs would come out in full force and rationalize it all. ;-)
@DaAdminGooner, Lionel Messi :-D
@arthur3sheds,
It wouldn’t surprise me. It has to be an “out there” answer or he wouldn’t have asked.
It seems logical: Arsenal FC have just swooped in to Catalonia and signed one of FC Barcelona’s most promising young talents. A boy who was homegrown at their own academy. I am of course talking about 16-year old Cesc Fabregas. So the media starts speculating (b/c that’s what they do) and asks teenage Lio Messi if he would ever leave the club that he came to as a 13-year old, in part b/c they paid for his medical treatments. And he says it would be a difficult thing to leave a club that did that for him, but…. “if an offer from Arsenal arrives, I will leave.”
I look forward to the answer.
@ChicagoGooner,
Its Stekenlenburg.
Sorry been a way folks taking a little RnR during the interlull. Am about to begin parshing through the data of the survey. Some interesting stuff.
Think the doomers will think the 500+ respondents are nuts though.
Also Jens is set to start in the reserve match tomorrow against Wigan.
@DaAdminGooner, aliadiere is too.
@DaAdminGooner,
“the doomers will think the 500+ respondents are nuts though”
*Or* that the guys who haven’t found much time to post on here over the last month have poured that energy into filling out surveys.
“some say we should have bought a dm or a cb in january. perhaps. clearly, the player would have to be good enough. but what player that’s good enough is going to be available in january at a reasonable price? what manager is going to sell one of their best players in the middle of the season? what player who plays regularly wants to come to arsenal to be a back-up? do we want someone who’s ambition is to be a back-up?”
I have addressed all those points in the response below.
But just to add … so you are saying that we can not have good backups because anybody good enough should not want to sit on our bench, so lets not buy anybody. Infact lets not look, there is no quality in January and if there is quality he should not want to be a backup, so lets just do nothing.
That is some freaking twisted logic!
The ONLY reason we were talking about buying a DM and a CB in January was because those positions were NOT addressed in the summer. Infact they have not been addressed for 3 years+ now.
Lastly, Birmingham were NOT lucky to beat us. They beat us fair and square. Let’s stop making excuses.
@Fred, you always find these little points and try to make arguments about it when it wasn’t even the point. okay, just for you, let’s change it from a four year contract to a three year deal and let’s change the wages from 50k to 30k a week. guess what, slick? the arsenal problems i mentioned are still there. can you still make a legit argument?
that wasn’t even the point i was getting at. i was talking about the quality of players available in january. except for players who have fallen out at their club, no player worth their weight in dog shit is going to be available in january, except for ridiculous money. i’m sure the club has searched but these players are not easy to find. i know it’s a little different when you’re playing fantasy manager.
would you sell one of your best players in the middle of the season? say what you must to try and win an argument but most level-headed people would not; even playing fantasy manger. most real managers won’t sell their best players for any price mid-season. a small few might sell for a ridiculous price (andy carroll). respect that real management is different from fantasy.
if you were regular player and happy at your club, would you leave in the middle of the season to go to arsenal and sit on the bench? most real players wouldn’t, unless it meant a ridiculous pay raise. respect that real football is different from fantasy.
@joshuad,
1)
How about 1.5 or 2.5 year contract??
And AGAIN with the false arguments. If we had an extra quality CB in in January, then we can sell Squillaci in the summer. Or loan him out. Or buy out his contract and terminate him.
So WHAT problems are there?? Is having a quality CB and having to sell a shitty one now a “problem”??
2)
“i was talking about the quality of players available in january. except for players who have fallen out at their club, no player worth their weight in dog shit is going to be available in january, except for ridiculous money.”
That comment is such utter bullcrap – invented and ingrained into Arsenal fans’ skulls by 5 years of Wenger BULLSHIT.
I won’t even bother responding to it because of how incredibly daft it is.
Ibrahim Afellay, age 24 and with 6 years of STARTING experience with PSV, with over 30 caps for the Netherlands, with numerous trophies and a World Cup final appearance …. was bought for TWO MILLION POUNDS and with a wage of 45 K per week by Barcelona.
This is the same Barcelona with the BEST midfielders in Europe. And Afellay KNEW he would be sitting on the bench the vast majority of the time YET he went there and extremely happy and eager. All Barca offered him was a CHANCE!!
A chance is what ANY player worth his salt wants. And they will happily take a bench position at a rich, London club (or any other top European club).
Once again: The vast majority of players in Europe cost less than 10 M, the vast majority dont have high wage demands, a LOT of them are BETTER than a LOT of the crap players we put out and who continually embarass the club – not just with a lack of quality but with a lack of hardwork.
If Afellay bombs, he will be gotten shot of ASAP. But Denilshit and his cohorts are sitting pretty on wages 99% of Europe would die for, strolling around the park.
Yet you continue to parrot the Wenger drivel, that there are no “quality” players out there. And any quality is expensive. Am sorry that is completely unsubstantiated BS.
@joshuad,
Funny how Barca with Busquets as an homegrown nailed on starter for both Barca and Spain, a key world cup winner and the son of a Barca alumni to boot …. still went out DOGGEDLY for Mascherano! And they got him to accept bench duties too.
That is the same Mascherano, widely accepted by most as a premium DM. All they told him was that he should fight for his spot with Busquets and he ACCEPTED that challenge.
What did Busquets do, he did not get “killed”. No, he worked harder and now he is significantly better than he was even last season! Imagine that! The wonders of competition for places.
Yet a lot of Arsenal fans have rejected the very idea of buying any quality back up, because “no quality players want to be back up and compete with starters anyway!”. The brainwashing is complete.
—————————————
This is what is going to happen this summer. We wont buy in midfield or defense or GK, even though we all know Song is our only DM and is going to the ANC for 2 months in January/February. We would still have a thin squad. And we will still the same problems in January. Wenger will still not bother addressing them.
Then come March 2012, when realists are complaining AGAIN, some will come out with these SAME excuses.
Sigh.
@Fred, you think you can sign a good player on a 1 1/2 year contract? that’s fantasy football management.
you honestly don’t see anything wrong with buying out someone’s 3 year contract? that’s fantasy football management with monopoly money.
what do you have, ADD? for the third time, i’m talking about the quality of players available in january. barcelona didn’t buy mascherano in january. they didn’t “DOGGEDLY” pursue him either. everyone here remembers mascherano forced his way out of liverpool when hodgson took over. the only way that barcelona could afford mascherano was with man city’s yaya toure money. that’s real world football management with real money.
psv sold afellay in january because he only had six months remaining on his contract. they chose to collect three million euros plus perks instead of losing him for free in the summer. that’s real world football management with real money.
the one thing these two players did have in common is they were both done at their former clubs. i did mention in my earlier reply that players in a bad standing at their clubs were the only quality players worth buying in january. you even quoted me saying it but seem to have forgotten. it could be ADD, but i know you well enough to know you’re hell-bent on winning an argument. that’s okay. i’m on leave so i’ve got some time to argue with you.
@joshuad,
LOL …. you are incredibly … intentionally mixing up terms to obfuscate the issue. Yeah, several players have signed one year, two year contracts. Shocking I know.
As for buying out a contract that has three years to run, well, its a mixture of all three, you seek to loan out, sell for really cheap (or nothing) and if it is 1 year left you buy out his contract. We did that with Campbell contract in 2006. Yet, you derisively call it “fantasy manager”. SEVERAL clubs write off players …… so I’m bemused you seek to argue that point.
And you keep on repeating the complete UTTER garbage of there not being any “quality” players in January. Absolutely none better than Denilshit (Kaiser part 2!!!), Diaby, Eboue, Rosicky, Almunia, Squillaci and co.???
Incredible tortured logic.
The funny thing about the “there are no quality players out there for reasonable prices” argument is that you lot dont just use them in January. Every September, after failing once again to strengthen the squad properly, we STILL get the SAME nonsense argument that there being “no quality players” out there! Imagine that!
The club will just start a random rumor about a player, and use that as “proof” that they “tried”. So we”ll have another year of Denilson, Almunia, etc.
———————————————————————–
If by ADD, you mean “being hellbent on beating down on Wenger drivel infused into the minds of sheepish Arsenal fans”, then YES, I have ADD :-)
Wenger has been repeating his crap for so long now, unsuspecting Arsenal fans just mouth it off thinking they actually came up with the thought themselves. Classic Inception!
@Fred,
Inception?
Or Stockholm Syndrome?
@Fred, far from mixing up terms, slick. it’s understood that players signed in january will sign for half a season. even though we’re talking about january transfers, let’s round it off to whole years to prevent you having another episode.
sure, some players sign a one or two year deal but the question is what GOOD player is going to sign for only one or two years? the only players signing those types of deals are questionable players; players who used to be good and are hoping to bring back the glory days. examples are michael owen to man united, robert pires to aston villa, or sol campbell to newcastle. the only exceptions i can think of are gallas to spurs and henrik larsson to barcelona and even they weren’t signed in january. top players aren’t signing for anything less than three years; except in fantasy football.
speaking of sol campbell, are you so desperate to win an argument that you would lie about arsenal buying out his contract? that’s disappointing. grown men should speak the truth, fred. arsenal released him from his contract so that he was free to negotiate with some team abroad, either in greece or turkey. everyone knows that; even your little side-kick, stan. and just because some team bought out a contract doesn’t make it a good idea, unless the player was too big a disruption to the team. real world football managers don’t just buy out contracts, fred.
everything else you’re going on about must be your ADD kicking in becuase you’re all over the place. the only thing i’m talking about is the real world quantity of good players available in january.
@joshuad,
‘even your little side-kick, stan.’
Josh, seriously, your obsession with me is starting to get awkward. Unlike Fred, I haven’t found you worth responding to in months and months. Please, try to heal and move on.
@joshuad,
Hahaha …. Sol Campbell signed a three year contract in 2005 and left in 2006. The media then told that he was paid one year in wages while he forfeited the second. With Sol saying he was moving abroad. Wenger then got pissed when he moved to Pompey.
So in other words you ACCEPT that players (and there have been tons of them) can actually have their contracts truncated/terminated??? Hahahaha …. at last progress, Josh!
————————————————————————
Again, your continued argument that there are “no quality” players is completely and utterly false. Not based on any sort of reality whatsoever. An inception from the French Twat manager that you gobble up unquestioned. Doesn’t the Kool Aid get disgusting at some point? :-D
Surely there can’t be anybody better than Eboue, Squill or Denilson (who you once and hilariously compared to Beckenbauer!!!!!)
————————————————————————-
Josh, getting rid of garbage players should be our NUMBER ONE priority immediately after our last EPL game. Low quality AND lazy players should not have the honor of wearing the shirt. They should be hawked for cheap, loaned out, terminated, whatever. Their very presence poisons the team and prevents any hope of quality replacements.
Good luck with your argument that quality players as backup is an impossibility ;-) Such widespread, illogical sheepishness is the oxygen for the Wenger regime.
nicely written, hts. i agree with much of what you’re saying. while i won’t play devil’s advocate like i typically do, i also won’t only address the doomers or what ever you call them. fyi, i prefer the other title.
the bottom line is all arsenal fans are tired of their team punching below their weight. many fans want to believe there is an easy answer but that’s not the way the world works. like you mentioned, many arsenal fans live from kick to kick, game to game, and season to season. the arsenal management team doesn’t have that luxury. they have to think about next year and even five and ten years from now. they also have to think about team building. many fans playing fantasy manager with monopoly money don’t appreciate that.
some say we should have bought a dm or a cb in january. perhaps. clearly, the player would have to be good enough. but what player that’s good enough is going to be available in january at a reasonable price? what manager is going to sell one of their best players in the middle of the season? what player who plays regularly wants to come to arsenal to be a back-up? do we want someone who’s ambition is to be a back-up?
so, we pay 7 million pounds for a defender worth 2 million who turns out to be cygan mark ii. we start the pre-season with all of our center backs fit again, not to mention the likes of pedro botelho, kyle bartley, and ignasi miquel pushing for a spot. oh, by the way, we’ve also got the new cygan, who we over-paid for, sitting fat with another 3 1/2 years left to run on his 4-year 50k a week deal. the squad is too fat and players have to be sold but what if you fail to sell them? you have to insulate these players too, but you’ve already isolated them by putting them on the transfer list. managers have to build a team. if not, you’ll have dissent, which makes having a proper team impossible. isolated players will cause dissent. team building is critical.
in fantasy manager, you can cut and paste players and you don’t have to worry about building a team or managing long-term finances. in real managment, you have to find the right player, he has to be available at the right price, he has to want to come to the club, and he needs time to integrate into the team. the answers aren’t always so simple. liverpool and real madrid are good examples of what you get when you play fantasy manager or manager carousel with real teams. arsenal aren’t that far away. birmingham city got lucky, we beat barcelona with eleven men, and we’re a close second in the league. we’re all frustrated but this team is far from bad. no sense in dramatic, fantasy manger-type changes.
@joshuad,
Nothing annoys me more than false arguments. And you repeat several the AKBs mouth off.
“we’ve also got the new cygan, who we over-paid for, sitting fat with another 3 1/2 years left to run on his 4-year 50k a week deal.”
So EVERY player in the world signed MUST be signed on a four year contract?? Thats a ridiculous argument point.
How about Wenger stop looking for slow, old, French men he can buy for peanuts and get some mid-20s hungry kid from Germany, France, East Europe, etc.
Next: Very, very few footballers earn more than 50k per week. Outside of Spain, Italy and England, that sort of wage is unheard off. And in Italy and Spain, that wage is reserved for the Messi, Iniesta, Kaka, Ronaldo class.
In Spain, the law obligates the clubs to disclose, so the media there have concrete data on player wages. Guess what in Barcelona, Busquets, Valdes, Pique, Adriano, Alves, Maxwell, Pedro, and a host of others have NOT broken 50k per week. Same thing at Madrid. Same thing all over Italy. Only the premium players get overpaid.
The other English clubs (especially Man U have a similar policy). Even Mourinho said, when he bought Essien, that he might overpaid for him but at least the wage was low. It was thought to be a 40k per week. Essien’s wages has since doubled though.
The fact that Wenger is paying Denilshit, Diaby, etc MORE than the most of the starting lineups of Madrid, Barca, Milan, Man U, etc is no one else’s fault but Wenger’s.
Conclusion:
The VAST majority of players dont break 50kpw, the VAST majority of players cost less than 10 m, the VAST majority of players will die to play for a Big English CL team. That is a very large and overlapping pool of players.
In that pool of players (which is probably greater than 95% of ALL players), I can ASSURE you that we can find some SIGNIFICANTLY better than Denilshit, Diaby, Eboue, Rosicky, Squillaci, Koz, Almunia, etc.
@Fred, you can’t say that Fred, because it would mean Wenger isn’t doing his JOB well… or IS doing his job, which is to make huge profits for the club.
The “why would a good player come to Arsenal” without being a starter … argument…. is such BULLSHIT.
Competition IN THE TEAM… makes the team stronger.
AND
with the number of injuries Arsenal suffer through EVERY season… anybody in the squad will get his chance to play.
Not being able to buy in January is non-sense.
You can buy any time… if you want to TRY to win a title, and you feel you are close.
We WERE close… ARE close… but every year, we do shit, and people peddle the same non-sensical theory to cover for Wenger and the Boards constant neglect.
I agree about the “leading” nature of the survey questions and I think various fans realize what you’re getting at….It doesn’t bother me, by the way, but I’m sure you know that no matter what the results you won’t be changing anybody’s mind…..
Personally, I’m interested in the DAG (or one of his posse) investigating and writing up info about the upcoming UEFA fair-play rules….This post promises to get too long for the short-attention spanners, (SAsPs?) but here goes:
Doomers/Realists (I won’t use the other acronym that I coined a couple of threads back, but I think it applies here….) return (over and over) to the following points:
1) All that matters are trophies….
2) If anything else matters it would be the latest result (unless it could be construed in a positive manner to suggest that there is hope for trophies, which will not be coming….)
3) The only time-frame that applies is the current season….
4) The only other time-frame that might apply would be the time since our last trophy….
5) The situations of other clubs do not apply….(i.e., it doesn’t matter that we’re ahead of Liverpool–or Pompey–in the table, only that they have both won trophies more recently….It only matters that we’re behind United in the table and recent trophies and Chelsea on the latter count….and soon in the former….)
6) If we only did more, even just a little more, everything would fall into place. As it is, we haven’t done enough, obviously…..
To a certain extent, I think that this is not entirely unreasonable. It IS the prerogative of the fan to live and die with each kick, each goal, each result. It IS entertainment and why shouldn’t we follow our heroes through every up and down, brush with death, etc. In the movies, however, they always beat the villain, get the girl, etc. It’s been so (very) long for the Arsenal supporter, so it’s a bit worrisome….
So, I get it, but given that it’s NOT a movie, I think a longer term perspective is better. It’s one reason I tend not to post when we beat an opponent we ought to beat (‘sbeen awhile now…..)
In my opinion, Arsenal is well positioned for long term success without financial losses nor excessive debt, which may be just the lure for a sugar daddy. And Alisher Usmanov has now pushed ahead of Roman Abramovich on the world’s richest list! If the board would just let him take over, he MIGHT go for it and hoover up talent and make Arsenal the super-super-galatico team that many dream for–he might also re-finance the club with a bank….See Malcolm Glazer and/or Hicks and Gillette…..
(Longer term, if the “fair play” rules are filled with loopholes, the fat man and the hope that he’s happy losing money may be our best means of keeping up….)
Frankly, however, I see the game going in a different direction, where the rich clubs protect their position while allowing for enough parity (at the very top). Even Sheiks and (former communist) oligarchs (not to mention Castilian and Catalunyan banks and Italian Prime Ministers, etc….) get tired of losing excessive amounts of money and thus, I think, the “fair play” rules will end up being solid enough to create an oligarchy of top teams. The measure of success for these teams will be making the final 16 or final 8 of the Champion’s League and insuring qualification for the following year. It’s interesting that Chelsea (Abramovich) got back on the spending train this past January when those goals seemed threatened rather than when it (he) had a greater chance for multiple trophies…..
So, in looking at the Arsenal, I lament that we’re having a poor season–(out of the CL, which will not be good for the bottom line, by the way, and with dim prospects for winning the league). I also lament that, in order to be a top team we have to charge high ticket prices, which is changing the nature of traditional supporters (neighborhood, working class) from getting to see matches in the stadium to having to watch them at the pub/on the telly. On the other hand it gives international/dirtbag types (like me) unprecedented access to flat screen, HD nirvana. As many have noted, it dilutes the direct in-stadium support in ways us North Americans already know (and generally despise).
Bottom line: things are changing (for better and worse) but Arsenal is ready for these changes (if not helping to cause them). And one of them, the “fair play’ rules (I think, I need more info, thanks in advance….) whether they come with or without teeth, may advance our (long term) cause even further….
@highburyterracesteve,
I’m not sure why one of me or my guys should write anything –
That was one of the best posts ever Steve.
Take a bow son.
@DaAdminGooner, Cheers DAG, but I fear I’m waaay too old for you to be calling me son….
My only regret is that my browser is such that my post doesn’t appear twice….Or do those guys just post twice, every time? (In other words….can this be fixed?….)
Another interesting interlull topic might be regarding Stag’s question (Stag’s question….) about whether or not people think that Arsenal/Arsene thus Arsene-L, actually sacrifice results in order to pursue the ideal of “attractive football” (I really don’t think so; He needs result more than anybody….it’s just a Wenger-ism that annoys some people….Frankly, I think the quality of the English game has changed–for the better–in the time I’ve been watching it as a result of “the Arsene-L.” Note that Sam Allardyce is jobless, etc. and the demand for better pitches, more attacking football seems real—certainly the bottom of the table this season should be wildly entertaining…..)
Anyhow….
Interesting stuff from Bob Wilson in today’s Mirror:
But former Arsenal No 1 Bob Wilson says Wenger did try to bring in a top keeper in the summer.
“Arsene tried like mad to buy not only a goalkeeper, but what he considered to be the most consistent in the country. So he made a big bid for Pepe Reina,” he said.
“That didn’t come out because that’s not Arsene Wenger’s way of doing it and it’s not Arsenal’s way of doing it, but he did attempt to do that.”
But Wilson believes not bringing in a high-profile stopper may benefit the club in the long-term, as it will allow Szczesny to flourish.
“I think he [Wenger] would have lost, without any doubt, the young kid Szczesny [had he signed Reina], who I believe is going to be the future,” added Wilson.
“It’s most unfortunate he has had this injury and in the game that he had it, but I happen to think Szczesny is going to be a great goalkeeper. The boy is ready now – you ask Arsenal fans.”
@DaAdminGooner,
The Wilson quotes read like doubtle-talk to me. Wenger ‘tried like mad’ but it didn’t happen because “that’s not Arsene Wenger’s way”?
Well, then did he really try like mad?
Or did he actually make a standard to sub-standard effort, and when the world didn’t conform to Wenger’s view (way of doing things), it didn’t happen?
Both history and the non-result would suggest the latter.
That Wilson concludes, essentially, bringing in a high-profile stopper would ‘kill’ Szczesy gives this whole thing the feel of an article that was whispered in his ear by Wenger himself.
@vibe4arsenal,
BULLSEYE !!!!!
@vibe4arsenal,
Where does it say it “didn’t happen because that isn’t Arsene’s way.: What Wilson says is “That didn’t come out [the bid] because that is not Arsene’s way.”
Not so sure what is double speak about that. Additionally, Wilson doesn’t say that bringing in a top stopper would hinder Szczesny – he says that not bringing one in ultimately has allowed Szczesny to flourish. He also says had we brough in Reina, Szczesny wouldn’t have signed a new deal at the beginning of the season
Is there something untrue about that? If we had brought in Reina – who is likely going to be good for a few more years Szczesny wouldn’t have stayed with us – it would’ve kept his way to the first team blocked. The kid was very vocal about wanting to play and if he wasn’t going to get it here then he would’ve gone.
I don’t know if what Wilson says is true or not but it is not fair to try and twist the meaning of what he is saying when it is very clear what the meaning is.
@DaAdminGooner,
Okay, here’s the exact quote as in your post. Slightly different words than I used, but ultimately the same meaning.
Wilson says Arsene ‘tried like mad’, but…
“That didn’t come out because that’s not Arsene Wenger’s way of doing it and it’s not Arsenal’s way of doing it…”
I’d say the same as I do above. Wenger trying ‘like mad’ would have meant breaking an established pattern. Doing something above and beyond what he normally does. But ‘trying like mad’ to bring in expensive veterans has not been “Arsene Wenger’s way’ for years.
So instead, he probably simply tried. And as one would expect, a GK of Reina’s skill and experience costs more money than Wenger wants to pay. So it didn’t happen. As usual.
So does that suggest extraordinary effort, at the time? Or extraordinary spin, after the fact?
Now, again, using the exact quote from your post, so as to eliminate the simple paraphrasing you call twisting…
“I think he [Wenger] would have lost, without any doubt, the young kid Szczesny [had he signed Reina],…”
As we all know, that’s pretty much the same line of thinking and language Wenger has used for years, when explaining why he doesn’t want to bring in experience for his youth to sit behind.
So how have I twisted any meaning? Sneezy wouldn’t have ‘flourished’ if he hadn’t have played *this* year? Umm, well, yeah. That’s pretty safe to speculate. Guys who don’t play much probably don’t flourish.
But how much better would the *team* have done with a GK Reina’s experience and quality? I can speculate on that, as well. And still hazard a guess that Szczesny would have survived another year or two to possibly flourish at a later date, as he appears to be a talented young man with heart.
Finally, the timing of this piece couldn’t have been orchestrated any better by Wenger’s PR flack. Just as the same old questions are being asked of His Majesty, and another year with no silver is coming into the homestretch, here comes a defense one of Wenger’s biggest failures of the season (to bring in a top-shelf GK). That just happens to mimic the exact, same kind of things Wenger himself often says.
Hey, I suppose I agree with you Wilson’s piece was interesting. I just read it differently. But that doesn’t require twisting it. Just reading between the lines.
@vibe4arsenal,
Once again, BULLSEYE!!, Vibe.
Ofcourse, we can’t bring in quality, experienced players because it will “kill” our kids. And in addition to that, the backup to these kids are even younger kids. And to really excabate this, the problem is concentrated in GK, DM, CB. Where steel, experience and leadership REALLY counts.
Our oldest players are all in the AM, wing, ST position (Squill aside), positions were youth would suffice. That is how unbalanced and out of whack our team dynamic is.
Remember folks, a player is only worth what Wenger says he is. Not a cent more! The valuation of any other club is completely irrelevant! lol.
@DaAdminGooner, what are you guys going on about? word that wenger bid for reina came out many months ago, quickly followed by reina declaring his loyalty to liverpool.
while i don’t believe wenger bid the rumored 23 million pounds for reina, wilson did declare it was a big bid. my biggest problem is wenger waited until the last minute to bid for both reina and schwarzer. no decent club is going to sell you their first choice at any position if you haven’t given them time to find an adequate replacement.
reina’s had quite a few howlwers this season. remember who gifted arsenal a point in the season opener and did his best almunia impersonation against argentina just to name a couple. how much do you guys think reina’s worth? petr cech only cost chelsea 7 million. lastly, regardless of what ever money wenger may have put up, i don’t think reina ever wanted to come to arsenal.
@joshuad, Reina is worth… whatever a CHAMPIONSHIP is worth to the club, the fans, and the players…
A REAL #1 keeper, could have won us a few matches during the season… and when you are a few points off the top of the league, that = Winning the League.
I don’t give a shit if he costs $25 MILLION… are we TRYING TO WIN, or NOT?
How many years do we go … before we put WINNING A TROPHY before MAKING A PROFIT?
where was the question about whether “WINNING” (like Charlie Sheen)… is as important as “playing entertaining football”!
;)
where was the question about whether “WINNING” (like Charlie Sheen)… is as important as “playing entertaining football”!
;)
As Mourinho said Wenger has the easiest job in football.He is the only manager at a top club who is under no pressure to win trophies.To our board and him top 4 finish is success.So winning trophies is not a priority
As Mourinho said Wenger has the easiest job in football.He is the only manager at a top club who is under no pressure to win trophies.To our board and him top 4 finish is success.So winning trophies is not a priority
when do you plan to release the outcome of these surveys.
he’s not too loyal to his players. just some
anyways loyalty is something all great managers should have, it gives the players a sense of something to fight for.
sure you can love the fans, but do you actually know them personally?
you fight for yourself, the team, and the manager. that’s how it was for me growing up in football and virtually everyone else i know (that play football).
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I have to say I think the questions may be a little leading as well, but overall really good surveys. Should be some interesting data coming from this.
I have to say I think the questions may be a little leading as well, but overall really good surveys. Should be some interesting data coming from this.
Section 1, for country, could it be made US & rest of North America as opposed to just US?
I like to think of Canada as an independent nation from the US and I am not the only one :)
@Sachin,
Canada is a country and not the 51st state?
@Sachin,
Considering you folks “up north” have a population less than that of California and the fact that 80% of Canadians live 100 miles or less from the border due to our magnetic awesomeness …. its safe to just use the US as a synonym for North America.
@Fred, should the US be also used for South America then? And Asia for Australia since the Aussies now play in Asian Qual?
@Sachin,
Oh, lighten up, Nanook. You people are lucky the cruise missiles didn’t start flying immediately after we heard our first Bryan Adam’s song.
(Do love Trailer Park Boys, though. So you got that going for you.)
Bob and Doug McKenzie are okay and I do like Poutine.
Survey answered. Have to say the questions were a little leading. I think you are going to get 90% of fans answering the same.
@John B,
Actually the disparity so far is pretty intriguing.
I wolf down humble pie. Looking forward to the results. I was getting the sense from blogs and tweets that gooners were generally thinking along the same lines.
@John Branigan,
To be honest John as I wrote it – I know some answers are likely to come out heavier one way or the other but for the most part I am kind of surprised by the initial sampling.
I want to keep it going up until I get as close to 1000 responses as I can.
@DaAdminGooner,
i’m just going to do it now. so far it is a little unfair, in that some questions have no middle ground. for instance, i buy strip when i want to have a player’s jersey. samir, RVP for example. and this year i’m going to get the 2011 home strip for henry to hopefully sign after the redbulls game in vancouver.
you’re probably going to have to post this at the end of every article you post before you get 1000 results. just a suggestion